Situation (2 man Officiating mechanics)First round of the HS playoffs and the loser goes home...Team A ahead by 3 with 7.2 seconds to go and shooting 2 freethrows...Team A has 4 players back on defense, none near the FT shooter...Team B has all 5 with the FT shooter, 3 table side and two opposite the table

Shooter misses the first shot...The Lead takes the missed shot and as he does two Team B players begin to wave their arms going from down below the waist to directly over their heads...This is to encourage the crowd to yell louder...Lead tosses shooter the ball and one of the two Team B players ceases waving but the other does not...The Team B player still waving is on the baseline nearest the Lead Official...As Team A player shoots the Team B player is still waving from below the waist to above the head.

This is clearly a violation and the waving movement is the worst I have ever seen in a V game at any level..Team A misses the FT and Team B rebounds.

Would you have called disconcerting the shooter in this situation if you were the Lead?...This player would have been the Lead's responsibility due to his position on the baseline but there were only the 3 Team B players on that table side with 2 opposite the table side...What would you do if you were the Trail and the Lead passed on it?

I need some unbiased opinions please...Should the call have been made no matter the situation-score/playoff/loser goes home?... Should the kids "be allowed to settle things on the floor" and not by the Official's whistle?...I can tell you there have been 2 very wide schools of thought around here as to whether or not game Officials should have passed or made the call... After a few responses I will post what we did.

I guess the way I look at it is what would you do in the first quarter? I think it is bull for an official to make a different call in the last minute as opposed to the first minute. How can you say the official decided the play? I don't think the lead or trail was the one waving his arms during the free throw! I had the exact same call in the last minute of a game this year. It was a lane violation then and it was in your game. Team A gets another free throw no matter which official calls it. If my partner passed on this I would call it as a trail.

Keep 'em "straight up"

Had a kid standing behind the shooter outside the three line, was whistling and it was completely obvious he was trying to disconcert the shooter. I called and the kid looked at me like I was nuts. Told him he can't do that. It was also at the end of the game.

Also, as is always said the officials never decide the game, the players on the floor do. The official that says he doesn't want to make a call in the last minuet because he doesn't want to decide the game is now deciding the game for the kids by not calling something that was a violation or foul earlier in the game. If it was a foul or violation at the tip, it is a foul or violation as time expires.

I have disconcertion.

Disconcertion here too. In that case maybe the players
did not do it in the beginning of the game but did it late in the game when it was on the line.

camaulds,
I have disconcertion and a quiet warning to the player for unsporting action.
mick

OK...Here's what happened.

I was the trail on the FT shot...The Team B player continued to wave his arms repeatedly starting below his waist and ending above his head even after the Team A player was releasing the ball...It was the most extreme example of this violation I had ever seen at any level...As there were no other Team A players at the FT area, there was 3 team B players opposite me, table side...As the shot hit the rim the Team B players converged on the rebound...I put my fist out for the delayed call and waited for my partner to have a chance to get it (Mechanically it was his guy to get)...When he didn't blow it I stepped in and told him I had a violation...Instead my partner had awarded a T/O to Team B...Both teams headed to their bench.

My partner hated the call...I explained the call to the Team B coach and told him there would be no T/O and there would be repeat of the second FT...Of course the kid hits the FT to give his team a 4 point lead...That was the final as team A didn't even defend the 3 point brick that B threw up.

My partner felt that I did not allow the kids to settle the game on the court...I feel just the opposite...Just because a score is close in the last 2 minutes doesn't mean we should give both teams carte blanche to do whatever they want in the name of allowing them settle it on the floor.

The next day's paper quoted the losing coach as saying he had never heard of such a rule...This was no surprise at all...Meanwhile, in subsequent days, my partner has been trashing me to any Official who would listen...Several of them have called me to tell me so...I was stunned by this turn of events...A coach not knowing the rules?...Very believable...My partner embelishing the truth and trashing me to other Officials?...Unconscionable!...Unfathomable!

It is my considered opinion that if it was a foul/violation in the first period, it should be with 7.2 seconds left in the 4th as well...It is my considered theory that you Officiate the game until the end.

Sadly, not everyone feels as I do...Thank you for your unbiased opinions...While 3 Officials who were looking on in the crowd supported the call and several have called to agree, they are still people I know and work games with...Were they just being a friend or did they really feel that way?

Thank God for the eyewitnesses...I have told anyone who wants to, to ask for their opinion...They know the rules and have called the games...Ask them what really happened.

I have gotten honest opinions from those who responded...You don't know me, haven't worked with me and have no reason to agree with me if you really don't feel that way...You can't know how much I have appreciated knowing others truly feel as I do and would have done as I did.

In my heart I knew I did the right thing and given the same set of circumstances, would make the same call again.

The one thing I would suggest - blow your whistle!

If teams are in a TO huddle, then learn that there's no TO, they'll be pissed - especially because it looks like you and your partner got together to screw over team B.

On the other hand, if you have a strong whistle after your partner's TO signal, it gives credibility that you had already "planned" to call the delayed violation.

Does this guy post as "4th year ref" on the McGriff board? Sounds like the same guy. :(

Just out of curiosity, what would that "partner", and the other boobs, call if with a few seconds left, Player A low bridges Player B on a layup attempt?

Bob

Hang in there. In the long run he will tarnish his reputation and yours will weather this out. Don't bad mouth him but continue with the facts. do you have a good board on your association? I feel like I do and I would go to them with an issue like this, so it does not continue all summer and you can move on.

To BktBallRef...I am not the "4th year Ref" on the McGriff board...I have never posted there...I started Officiating in Louisiana in 1976 and continued when I moved here to Michigan.

To Mark...I did blow my whistle...It was almost simultaneous with the lead's as he granted the T/O...I would have normally blown it quicker but given it was his guy to get I waited a split second to give him a chance to do that...When we sounded together, I thought he must have called the violation when in fact the player had told him before the first FT that they wanted a T/O after the last FT.

You are right though...It would have helped matters if I had sounded my whistle immediately.

Your partner sounds like one of those "veteran" officials who think that they can decide which rules they choose to enforce. This one team B clearly gains an advantage by disconcerting the thrower A. I would not worry about this guy you worked with. Anyone who wouldn't call this clear violation is an idiot. Keep up the good work and above all, be consistent in your calls. Most coaches feel that is the most important thing for us to do. Tight or loose as long as all the calls are the same on both ends of the floor.

Keep 'em "straight up"

I wasn't asking about you. I was asking about your partner. There's a guy on McGriff who was ripping apart the officials who worked the Alabama-USC game on Saturday. Same sort of crap you're having to put up with.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 12th, 2002 at 10:04 AM]

"wasn't asking about you", TH, "wasn't"!! LOL

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Mar 11th, 2002 at 09:45 AM]

My only contribution to the original situation is that it could've been avoided if the Lead official had simply told the guys to knock it off before he bounced the ball to the FT shooter. Of course, since he didn't feel the delayed violation was justified (although it clearly WAS justified), it probably never entered his head to ask them to stop waving their arms. Perhaps you could've done it from the trail before the shooter was ready to let it fly. But perhaps not. I realize that's one where you have to be in the position to know if you could've said anything.

Chuck

Obviously your partner was not and is not a partner. Its OK for your partner to talk for decussion purposes because it is a good topic, but when he starts pointing fingers then he will pay in the long run. I also don't think its OK for officials to say, anyone who would not call this a violation is an idiot. Different officials have different opinions of what is a clear violation when it comes to disconcerting. Raising and lowering of the arms question, was it a rapid motion or was it slow motion or somewhere in between? This is where the judgement comes in. I would have to see the play to call this a violation. From what you say, it certainly did not look good. Fortunately, I have always been able to give a warning because it was border line. Bottom line you made the call and we are a team. For this reason i would back you 100%. I think you should get the tape and review it. I have made calls in a game and later reviewed the tape and it did not seem to be as bad as i thought when i made the call.

Ron Wilcox --

Where did you grow up? Do you know any other Ron Wilcoxes? I went to grade school with someone by that name. Could it have been you?

juulie cole downs

I grew up in Calif., no I do not know anyone else with my name, attended grade school in Solvang and Hollister.

You can remember grade school? I can't remember yesterday ;) In you "15 minutes of fame" article it said you are 49. If you can remember grade school, it must have meant 29 :D

Bart, I humbly apologize for calling anyone an idiot. It was wrong. I just got fed up with hearing the crap about officials deciding the outcome of the game. Which in my little brain means we should swallow the whistle in the last minute. This act decides the game as well by not calling what we are charged to call based on the rules we are given.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dblref

Quote:

You can remember grade school? I can't remember yesterday ;) In you "15 minutes of fame" article it said you are 49. If you can remember grade school, it must have meant 29 :D

Actually, (let's be completely honest here) it says 45. I'm willing to own them all, but not any more!

Ron -- okay, well, now you know that another Ron Wilcox at least used to exist. I haven't heard news about him for years and years. He (and I) grew up in Portland in the sixties.

Now we know who Mr. Spelling is on the McGriff board! :p

NOT GUILTY, I SWEAR!!
 

Not true, Tony! I didn't correct it b/c of the spelling, but b/c the way you typed it was exactly the opposite of what you meant. The original poster thought you meant that he was "4th year ref". When you tried to assure him that's NOT what you meant, you actually said that you WERE talking about him. I just found that humorous. Maybe I'm "Mr. Context" or "Mr. Opposite" or something. My daughter just calls me "The Dork", which is actually pretty close to the mark. :D

Chuck

If I am lead on this play. I very STRONGLY tell the guy waving his arms to stop. If he ignores me, I definitely
have a disconcertion.
When howler monkey goes nuts, at least I can say the player was warned and chose to ignore it.:P
I might even get the ball back from the shooter and make a general announcement to the lane to knock it off.
Whether the waving cause the miss is debateable because of the pressure situation anyway.
Sorry that your partner was a jerk. You would hope that officials working playoffs would have respect (and confidence) for each others abilitites and support decisions made.
Your partner sounds like someone I wouldn't want to work with in a close game because it doesn't appear that he can make a tough call when needs be.
Stick by your guns, don't let his negative comments to others get you down.
"Never ever let anyone or anything destroy your belief in yourself or your abilities."

In a case such as this I have blown my whistle stepped into the lane and told the players to knock off the crap and then readminister the ball for the free throw.
IMO there is no place for this as it is a "Free Throw".

Re: NOT GUILTY, I SWEAR!!
 

Just yankin' your chain, Chuck. :)

I think my typing gets worse, the more I post on these boards! :)

To everyone else:

Yes, the thing to do would be to step in and put a stop to it. Unfortuantely, camaulds' partner ignored the whole sitch. That's the problem. Once the deed is done, there's no choice, except to do what cam did.

Actually, it's usually me.

No - wait - I'm Mr. Grammar Guy and his variants.

Actually, it's usually me.

No - wait - I'm Mr. Grammar Guy and his variants. [/B][/QUOTE]

Confession. It's good for the soul. ;)

Confession. It's good for the soul. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

I figured that I correct grammar on here so much that people would figure out who I was on McGriff.

I'm not trying to take away your title, Mark, but shouldn't it be "Actually, it's usually I"? The "I" is not the object of "It's" (which would require the objective case); rather, "I" is simply renaming the "It's" (which requires the nominative case).

Just my two cents,

Mr. Context Guy :rolleyes:

Chuck --

Are you a friend of I. M. Shirley Wright? I've been missing her and wondering where she went.

You're right - this situation is my biggest weakness.

BTW, I never said I was a correct grammar guy! :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

BTW, I never said I was a correct grammar guy! :D

LMAO!! Oh, man, talk about weaseling out of a tight spot!! That's too funny. Apply this to other situations. .

"Morning, folks. I'm Captain Elias, and we'll be taking off shortly. Please bear in mind that I never claimed to be a GOOD pilot. . ." :D

Chuck

Afraid not, Juulie. I don't know that name, sorry. Why would you think I was a friend of hers?

Chuck

Is that what you tell everyone at the captain's/coaches' conference? :D

She was, at one time, the "Staff Grammarian" for Click and Clack. She used to have a few minutes every week and I kind of miss her. Weren't you the Click and Clack fan on here a few weeks ago?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Weren't you the Click and Clack fan on here a few weeks ago?

'Fraid not. Were they on a children's show? They sound so familiar, but I can't place the names.

Chuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker Quote: Weren't you the Click and Clack fan on here a few weeks ago? 'Fraid not. Were they on a children's show? They sound so familiar, but I can't place the names. Chuck

Click and Clack!!!!

The Tappet Brothers!!!

Ray and Tom Magliozzi!!!!

Cah-Talk!!!!! (from ah fair city, Cambridge - you're close to Boston, you should know!!)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

Cah-Talk!!!!! (from ah fair city, Cambridge - you're close to Boston, you should know!!)

Well, at least I've heard of "Cah Tawk". But I don't listen to it. (My dad does, tho.)

Chuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter Quote: Cah-Talk!!!!! (from ah fair city, Cambridge - you're close to Boston, you should know!!) Well, at least I've heard of "Cah Tawk". But I don't listen to it. (My dad does, tho.) Chuck

Shoot, I had begun to think you were my long-lost twin brother!! I will guess that if you ever do listen, you'll be as addicted as I am. Although it will never be the same since I. M. Shirley Wright is gone.

Juulie, just make sure you don't drive like my brother!!