Thinking about an "almost" simultaneous foul last season

[zebraman]

Just thinking about a play that happened in districts last season:

I am T. Ball gets passed to the baseline corner, just outside the 3-pt. line. A1 shoots a three. After he lands, but while the shot is still airborne, A1 gets knocked to the ground by B1 who was closing out hard and could not stop. I blow my whistle. I am going to call a foul after the shot. A1 is not in bonus so they will get the ball for a spot throw-in. However, I hear another whistle at the exact same time as mine coming from the C's area. The shot goes in.

I signal a three and count the shot and then run to the C. He says he has an off-ball foul on A2 while the shot was airborne. After a very quick conversation, we decide that his foul happened first. We count the three, he reports the foul on A2 and we give the ball to team B for a throw-in.

Just curious how many of you would have chosen the simultaneous foul and reported both fouls followed by POI?

Thanks in advance.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Just thinking about a play that happened in districts last season:

I am T. Ball gets passed to the baseline corner, just outside the 3-pt. line. A1 shoots a three. After he lands, but while the shot is still airborne, A1 gets knocked to the ground by B1 who was closing out hard and could not stop. I blow my whistle. I am going to call a foul after the shot. A1 is not in bonus so they will get the ball for a spot throw-in. However, I hear another whistle at the exact same time as mine coming from the C's area. The shot goes in.

I signal a three and count the shot and then run to the C. He says he has an off-ball foul on A2 while the shot was airborne. After a very quick conversation, we decide that his foul happened first. We count the three, he reports the foul on A2 and we give the ball to team B for a throw-in.

Just curious how many of you would have chosen the simultaneous foul and reported both fouls followed by POI?

Thanks in advance.

1. How did you decide which foul happened first since each of you were looking in a different area and couldn't possibly have seen both events?

2. Yep, simultaneous foul, penalize both players for their wrong-doing and resume the game at the POI.

[zebraman]

Nevadaref,

The C was felt that he could see some of the action in the corner through the foul that he called and he felt that his happened first. It was very, very close. In my long and mediocre career, I have never called a simultaneous foul or a multiple foul and was just curious if others would have. A college assignors that I used to work for would NEVER want a simultaneous foul in that sitch and I was just curious on other opinions, that's all.

[Nevadaref]

So the "college" assignor mentality is to give one player a free shot at another kid? That's a good way to get one player to feel that he isn't being properly protected and that leads to retaliation and fights. I guess I don't agree with Mr. College Assignor.

It sounds from your description that the contact against the player who just took the shot was severe enough that it shouldn't be ignored. Hence your decision to call a foul in the first place.
So what we have is a play in which the timing is very close and a player who clearly got whacked. For game control, I think that you are better off not splitting hairs or even thinking about calling an intentional foul, but simply penalizing both kids by going with the simultaneous foul. Afterall, it clearly qualifies as the two fouls did occur "at approximately the same time."

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So the "college" assignor mentality is to give one player a free shot at another kid? That's a good way to get one player to feel that he isn't being properly protected and that leads to retaliation and fights. I guess I don't agree with Mr. College Assignor.

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

Simultaneous fouls mean they happen at the same time. Unless one of the 2 players can predict the future (there will be a foul by an opponent and his own foul will be ignored) no one is getting a free shot at anything.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

Simultaneous fouls mean they happen at APPROXIMATELY the same time. Unless one of the 2 players can predict the future (there will be a foul by an opponent and his own foul will be ignored) no one is getting a free shot at anything.

Fixed it for you, and that's according to the rules book. Hope it makes sense to you now.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Fixed it for you, and that's according to the rules book. Hope it makes sense to you now.

Maybe, but adding "approximately" doesn't affect his point.

[Nevadaref]

Well, Adam, you haven't yet stated how you think that it should be handled. So how about it?

[Adam]

I see no reason not to go with both fouls here.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Fixed it for you, and that's according to the rules book. Hope it makes sense to you now.

Still makes no sense, unless one of the players can predict the future.

[rainmaker]

I used the simultaneous foul once when we really weren't sure which foul was first, and we were trying to crack down on a lot of really sloppy hacking and pushing. The good part was that neither coach had a clue what was going on, but they both had been fouled and done the fouling so they both shut up. Still, if there's any way to avoid the "simultaneous" thing, I think it's better. JMO.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The good part was that neither coach had a clue what was going on, but they both had been fouled

Juulie - someone fouled the coaches? COOL! Was it you? That would be even COOLER! Do you have video? Was it the guy from Molalla? Hope so.

[Corndog89]

If simultaneous fouls are indeed called based on the OP, would each official report the foul he/she called to the table, or, after conferring, would just one of the officials report both fouls?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

If simultaneous fouls are indeed called based on the OP, would each official report the foul he/she called to the table, or, after conferring, would just one of the officials report both fouls?

Each official should report their own foul.

Shoot, it's hard keeping up with our own fouls, I'd hate to try and report someone else's foul.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Each official should report their own foul.

Shoot, it's hard keeping up with our own fouls, I'd hate to try and report someone else's foul.

Agreed, and I would add that this isn't a time to worry about reporting the fouls correctly from the foul reporting area - get to the table. If you're officiating 3-person, both of you to go over to the table to report them and explain to the scorer what's happening. In a 2-person game, one of you should go explain what's happening while the other watches the court, the first should report his foul, then observe while the second reports his foul.

One of you will probably need to give a brief explanation to both coaches at this point, too.