state finals games- selecting refs
 

Perhaps it varies state by state. I was wondering if they pick sets of refs or all over the state. I assume they mix it up. Second question would it be better to have guys who worked together do a game?
Not to sound too critical but one of the state finals games I saw was poorly officiated. (oh oh, shields up:cool: ).I'm not going to say the game. the tv people were wrong saying perhaps the refs were not used to the quality of athletes out there because I've seen one of the refs officiate big regional games with div 1 college talent and he is a good official. But for whatever reason, perhaps nerves or working with new guys if they do pick refs from all over, the three just didn't have it going that night.
Also, I doubt this but perhaps in some state finals game they have a 4th official watching the game who can come in and give a few pointers at halftime. A change in the way the game was being called who have helped. Instead a ton of fouls were called and quite a few were touch fouls that were not being called in the other state games I watched. And there were a few phantom fouls that replays showed were clearly wrong. Again, the one ref I have seen never made those calls in the games I have seen him do, but if he was working with new people and the whistles start going I guess the set starts getting whistle happy and they end up calling an ultra tight game for two very good teams. It was fair for both sides but the way the game was officiated had a major impact on how the teams usually play. I think both teams are ranked in the top 30 nationally.

What is the question?

Peace

From your previous posts, you have zero credibility when it comes to evaluating officials.

As admitted before by yourself, you're in your first year of officiating. You very obviously don't know the basic rules by some of the posts that you've made to date. That lack of officiating knowledge hasn't stopped you from critiquing and crapping on some very experienced NCAA D1 officials though. Now you're turning your vast officiating knowledge towards dumping on veteran high school officials doing state finals. Of course, that criticism is coming from some goober who has never officiated a varsity high school game in his life. Well, what's wrong with this picture?

Did your team lose that game, fanboy?

Goober?

http://sbritt.com/images/goober.jpg

Here's what I suggest.
Write a letter to the governing body of your state, attention "Director of Officials." List your complaints about the officiating for that game, one by one. I think if the officiating was that horrible, they have the right to know and maybe they can fix it next year by letting these guys know what they did wrong.

They need your input. Don't keep it to yourself!

LOL. That's some of the best "stir stick" work I've seen! :D

lpbreeze,

This your first year. Learn something. Almost everyone here that's officiate knows the hard work to get to the top. Running down an official (the one that has been there/done that) is no way to go. How do you think they pick D1 officials? They attended camps, work some small college, and basically have to prove that they are not only good, but great. My advice to you, listen to the guys who been there and done it. They will not steer you in the wrong direction. We are always here to help you, but you must have an open mind and the will to learn and to become a better official.

lpbreeze, you need a local mentor who can guide you properly. If for some reason, your local area does not provide a mentorship program. Ask nicely around here and you MIGHT get one. Furthermore, your TYPE A personality towards fellow officials will cause you to lose credibility around here. It appears that it has already happened.

My advice to you: Visit the forum read; comprehend; look up the rule reference; post only when you have things(i.e. rules; casebook plays) to back you up.

Stay the hell away from criticizing other officials on this forum.

Who? Me?

I didn't care who won. I did ask two veteran officials who watched the game and they also weren't too high on the officials. I did say the guy who did the game was a good official but for some reason they called an extremely tight game and it became a big part of the story instead of two teams that are among the best in the nation. Teams that get to the state finals know what they are doing but in the game about 60 fouls get called. State finals games should not be called that tight especially when there was not dirty play going on.
I asked a question about a coach getting a T during a halftime talk a while back and I thought about that when a coach at halftime was ripping the refs on tv as they walked in the background. I don't think they heard though.
But my first question was do they pick refs all over the state or ones who are used to working together. ...last post as I don't want this to turn into that other thread ..

Those two officials should be drawn and quartered; either for stupidity or hubris.
Apparently there are at least three state-final-level officials who disagree with you.

I guess the answer to your question will vary from State to State. Here in CO we don't use the same crews throughout the regular season or the post season. This year the 4A boys Finals used officials from 3 different cities & the 5A boys Finals used 2 from the city & 1 from CO Springs.

Perhaps they wished that they were working the game? We had some of those same types of officials watching the Finals here too. I will share with you the same advice that I received "do not to engage in that kind of conversation with them" PERIOD.
Although it does exist, but there's no room in officiating for envy & jealousy.

JMO, networking, building relationships & being likeable will get one much farther than the negative characteristics.

If someone officiate the state finals, they too, know what they are doing

Seems like he is talking about the Mitty-Mater Dei game. I work in NorCal and worked earlier in the state tournament and also call JC mens ball in the north, but I am not at the state final level. Having worked Mitty in league and having seen Mater Dei play, in addition to it being a rematch from last year with so much D1 talent, I figured it would be a very hard game going in, especially for a mixed crew who's seen neither of the teams before. It turned out to be one. That was a type of game where the refs were stuck, because "letting them play" too much probably would have led to an out of control game. The game was borderline out of control even with the number of fouls called, including 3 Ts and an intentional foul. So the refs had to balance that and emotions while also trying to establish a flow and referee some very good players, but with it being right on the edge of a non basketball play happening. Bottom line, that was a game where very few refs, if any, come out looking good. It was the game, not the refs, for the most part IMO.

Now, with regard to the original point about selection, again, I'm not a state final ref, but I know and work with several here in CA, and the point is that I think it's a very hard task to work with 2 strangers and officiate 2 unknown teams under that microscope. From what I've heard and observed, it almost seems like a camp setting, where 3 refs are trying to prove themselves to each other and their supervisor on that type of stage. The result has tended to be calls that might not ordinarily be called during the year, and a lack of communication. Last year's Mitty-Mater Dei final was marred by a basket that was counted that never went in. In NorCal, split crews are the norm for the whole state tourney and I believe they are in SoCal too, and in the final, there is a split crew from NorCal and SoCal. Pretty hard to have a perfect system in such a big state, and this might be the best possible system for selecting refs, but it certainly has its flaws. I think this underscores the importance of solid crews, rather than just having 3 really strong refs.

Bottom line with all this is if you work in a state where crews are the norm, then the non-crews for post-season basketball is going to be a change from the norm and present some officials with challenges while others will handle it fine.

I now work in a state where I have different partners every night. Crews are non-existant at any level of play. While it is different than my last state, where crews are normal, it has been a blast for me. And once you are used to it, it's not a problem. It just makes pre-games much more important.

Maybe there was no dirty play going on because the game was being called tightly. ;)

Obviously each state has its own process. How bout telling us the state so someone with knowledge of that state's policies/procedures can intelligently answer that question.

in Louisiana the first three rounds of the state playoffs the assignments are 3man crews from an agreed upon Association (and sometimes they are from the home town of one of the teams if both coaches agree to it). The 3 man crews are mixed bag from the Association's Assignment Secretary.

The first round will see a group of a 2nd year or up, a 5th year or up and a senior crew chief. The second round will see two 5th year or up and a senior crew chief. The third round will see three crew chiefs with one guy as the senior reff onsite.

The Final Four assignments are done by the LHSAA Director of Officials, Asst Commissioner Mac Chauvin and he picks the neutral crews from all over the state and assigns them to games himself. To get on his list of Final Four (we call it the Top 28) caliber Reffs you must go in June to the LHSAA three man camp in Baton Rouge at LSU. Once they see you work and take note of your potential they will keep an eye on you and ask various coaches and your Assignment Secretary about your development and reputation.

yah, it may have been that the refs were looking to prove themselves and show good technique instead of calling games how they usually do. Because both teams have such good post players and half court sets the game was physical.

---extra
The McClymonds of Oakland vs. Dominguez-Compton div. 1 game was a blast to watch on tv last night (replay). The Mater Dei game was the night before and I think the refs may have heard the criticism of how that game was called so in the div 1 game a lot less fouls were called and the game had a great flow to it. I would say it was an easier game to officiate but there were many instances of plays that were called fouls in the Mater Dei game but were not in the div 1 game. I'm a bit shocked but McClymonds is the best team in the State.



- that Compton player needed to stop SHOOTING NBA THREES! it was at Arco Arena

Unreal.

It also may be that you don't have the knowledge or experience to evaluate officials at <b>ANY</b> level. Of course, that never does stop you from crapping all over them.

Back-stabbing integrity-lacking scumbag.

That doesn't make sense! Prove themselves? The fact that they got the gig means they have arrived. Why would anyone stray from what got you the assignment in the first place? Maybe they called tight games all year. It might have something to do with them being picked in the first place.

More likely is the teams were over-hyped and trying to prove themselves and that led to a game that had a lot of fouls.

It's really not that difficult. Every one of us has been in a game where the flow (or lack thereof) was dictated by players who couldn't play within the rules.

You strike me as one who may not have experienced a game like that, and figure that any time 60 fouls are called it's the officials' fault. That, or you are a backstabbing scumbag as suggested above.

What you have here is a first-year official who has never worked a varsity high school game in his life critiquing an obviously veteran crew picked for the state championships. If you look at his original post, his learned evaluation of this crew consists of "poorly officiated", "phantom fouls" and "whistle happy". What does that tell you about this particular poster?

Note that this isn't the first time that he's come on here and crapped all over officials in the exact same manner either.

Just another scumbag troll imo......

Is this helping?
 

Do you guys honestly believe that name-calling is going to help this kid develop some insight into some of the problems with his comments? You completely cede the high-road when you call anyone a "backstabbing, integrity-lacking scumbage" or whatever it was.

If anything, you're only driving him more securely into his probably-preconceived notion that he already knows a lot and everybody on this board who disagrees is just an old fart.

If he's not going to take the mentoring advice offered him a couple of pages back, either keep trying to give it or ignore him, but for cripes sake don't let the guy drag you into the adolescent gutter.

whatever. huge difference in the div 1 and div 2 games and how they were called. Nothing to do with angles which I could see led to missed calls in the Stanford/UCLA game. There were simply bunch of calls that were wrong or should not have been called and replay clearly showed that. Excuse me as a fan of basketball but I wanted to see two great teams battle it out and have the best team win. Instead Mater Dei wins and I'm not convinced they are the best team because of the way the game was called. They were the best last year when the same teams played. In the div 1 game the best team clearly won.

last post really- perhaps all 4 teams will be nationally ranked in the top 20 which is great for California albeit national rankings for h.s. are a bit pointless.

I have learned some from JR and others who helped me on some of the questions I've asked and I'm thankful. But I've learned to make my own calls and if an more experienced disagrees with me well that is their problem. I've had them before the game try to get me to call a tight game or let them play and I've found that isn't the way to go. luckily most of my partners have been more in the middle and it has worked out.


edit- Communication, technique, dealing with coaches, position, and rules are things I listen to the more experienced refs. But I will take my judgment during a game over most of them. I know I will miss calls but as an official I don't want to change how teams play and that is what I saw during the State championship game.

((Rec games are so funny. I want to record some and make a best of list. ))) final

Yes, in many a Rec League...and the officiating was still better than the caliber of play. :)

I wouldn't say that... short leash maybe, but can't help himself... nah.

A poster comes to the forum to crap on an official once & he/she learns from it, good. But after multiple offenses, JR is gonna tell it like it is.

breeze, you made this statement above yet SMEngmann saw the same game and made this observation:

I am now confused to how this game was actually played. :confused:

I thought someone else made that comment. The Intentional foul was a great call and I'm glad it wasn't a flagrant because it looked like it at first. Replay showed the refs got it right. But I felt they happened because the players were frustrated with how the game was being called. Both teams are well coached and well-disciplined and it would not have been a dirty game. It would have been a physical game but well played had the refs not blown the whistle so much.

I haven't exactly been officiating for 50 years, but I have never seen a player commit an intentional foul out of frustration with too many fouls being called.

You might want to send that letter. And I'd copy the three officials in as well, they deserve to know what they did wrong. They probably just got caught up in the emotion.

Contradiction at it's finest! How can the words "intentional, flagrant & frustrated players" go hand in hand with "well coached & well-disciplined"

I thought you said the game was poorly officiated?? But the intentional was a great call. That must've went against the team you were cheering for...
I'm officially done with this thread.

When someone is a repeat offender, they haven't learned a damn thing and they never will. T'hell with him. We don't need clowns like him sullying up our avocation.

If he wants to dump on his fellow officials, then he's got absolutely no complaint when one of his fellow officials dumps on him.

I suggest you find tapes of the two games and take some notes

That is just about all you need to know about this particular first-year official. Pretty much sums him up perfectly.

Y'all have fun trying to turn him into an official.

I didn't realize Doug Gotlieb was reffing now. Or posting here. :D

Back-stabbing, intergrity-lacking scumbag is one thing.

"Doug Gottlieb" is taking the low-blows to an entirely new level...

You're doing exactly what you said you wouldn't do in the last idiotic thread you started - instead of asking for specific analysis of a particular play, or asking general questions about philosophy of game management, etc, you have chosen to dump on three specific officials who have an immeasurable amount more experience and knowledge than you.

It's simple, really - around here you're either with us or against us. You appear to have chosen the latter.

Tell you what. Why don't YOU find the tapes and then you can use them at the camp you plan to run this summer.

socal didn't make that observation. He's likely one of the veteran officials lpbreeze was referring to who agreed with him that the game was poorly officiated.

Exactly. There isn't one of us who hasn't missed a call, made a terrible call or had a bad game. And nobody feels worse than an official when he's been in that situation. And we all have been. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting an honest critique or evaluation at those times. Hopefully, we can learn something from it.

When you just haphazardly dump over a complete officiating crew without giving any real tangible or credible reason for doing so however, you've gone way too far imo. And when you repeatedly do so, it becomes very telling. If the officials missed a call, explain the call and why you think it was missed. If the officials are out of position, give examples. When you just say "phantom fouls" and "whistle happy", you're simply moving into fanboy territory. We take enough crap from know-nothing fans without having so-called fellow officials doing exactly the same thing.

Come on guys, I think we all need to lighten up a little on our Little Breeze...it is patently obvious that the system in California is fatally flawed and officials were chosen who screwed the whole thing up by making phantom calls and trying to decide the game instead of just letting the players play. Wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't some betting on the side - you know how those refs are about gambling on their games! If only Li'l Breezy had been picked to ref that game, THEN we would have seen some incredible judgement calls and one helluva well reffed game!!;) ;)

That post seemed a little long-winded.

Was it unprofessional and thin-skinned, also???:mad:

I agree with Sisyphus.

You just blew right by my point.

I get it.

Little Breezy.......long winded....blew by my point

That was supposed to have been one of them joke thingys, right?

Wow, you got it!

I guess thin-skinned people are less likely to get jokes.

Or, maybe it just went over his head.

Word.

My bad...it was SMEngmann.

Gee, I didn't see that coming. :(

I'll chime and and respond by saying that I didn't particularly think that the officials did a great job on that game, but I'll also back up my point that the game appeared extremely tough to officiate given the caliber of players, the stage and the potential for problems. 3 Ts and an intentional which I thought could easily have been a flagrant illustrates this point, as does the really chippy play at the end of the game. There was an elbow on a free throw with 10 seconds left for no reason, even with all the foul calls, it was physical away from the ball in the 4th, so I think the refs had the right idea to call a tight game, but they got so caught up in doing so that they ended up calling a number of marginal plays or plays that didn't exist. Their lack of familiarity with the teams also contributed as it put star players in foul trouble early. My bottom line is that with the way that game went, with MD getting up early and controlling the pace, I don't think any refs could have come out of that looking particularly good given the personalities and styles involved.

I agree with SoCal that it would've been better to have an established crew familiar with each other on this game. I also dispute the notion that just because someone is on a state final game that "they've arrived," rather, it's more like they've gotta prove they belong, and I think that's where these crews can appear like camp crews. Maybe another solution is to take one ref who works a Mitty during the season, one who works Mater-Dei and then a third neutral ref. I will leave that up to the powers that be.

All I have to add is:
http://WWW.picturepush.com/public/481560

That sounds like a good idea SME. The officials seemed like it was the first time they saw those guys play and had no idea about the div 1 post players. Maybe someone who did one or two of their games and isn't too familiar with them to be accused of being biased. And then have a third ref from Santa Barbara. - because no good team ever comes from there ;)

--off topic but was it me or did Mater Dei have about 50 players on their team. maybe not that many. They made their own mosh pit at the end. All 4 teams finish in the top 15 in USA today natl. rankings. nice go Cali. but really who can say for sure. biased for east and west coast.

Please tell me that you weren't serious when you wrote that.

If so, your credibility as an evaluator just breezed right out the window also.

More of that "college and above" mentality?

So basically some of our California brethren here are saying that the refs should have known who the future D-I players in that game were, and called the game differently for those particular players - that way the game would have been great!!

What a load of crap!

nope. later----ncaa time!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Read somewhere that the star's verticality is wider than that of the 10th guy off the bench. That may be an Illinois thing, not sure.

I think that is a result of a condition. You know the condition of not being capable to understand concepts beyond your level of understanding. :D

Peace

I just finished watching a replay of the game being discussed--Mater Dei/Mitty-- on PRIME channel. Officiating was <b>not</b> a factor.

Having a dish comes in handy sometime. This whole thread was a complete waste of time imo, which is not surprising seeing who started it. File it under "fanboy" and fuggedaboutit.

I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell ya!

Oops...sorry. I fixed it.

Interesting. Was verticality applied correctly? :D

Let's just say that it's really not worth discussing this particular thread any further. Nothing to be gained from an officiating standpoint imo. Hopefully, it'll die...like it should have on the first page.

You are 100% correct. But don't tell too many people here that. They don't want to hear it. Remember, there's only one way to do things, right? ;)

Dude. That statement just shows you really don't get it. Give it up already.

Let's apply that logic to another senario & make sure it all checks out:
2 x 3 = 6

If 2 & 3 are the factors, how do they not affect the outcome? Just saying...

I watched that game again this past weekend. They had it on in the East on Fox Baltimore. I'll iterate again what I stated...officiating was not a factor.

It's not a matter of anyone being afraid to be critiqued. It is a matter of people who very obviously don't have the experience, knowledge or competency to critique other officials still trying to do so. Let's get that little fact straight once again.

that's nice. did you see the Mack-Compton game(Div 1)- that was fun to watch. Well officiated. It was clear the better team won unlike the Div II game where the refs clearly affected how the teams played and substituted making them a factor.



even i don't want this thread to continue. geeez. NCAA time...

And the first-year expert on college officials strikes once again.....:rolleyes:

Amazing....but not surprising.

Until he can show us he can do a better job than Jon Diebler, he should just shut up.

never. the masked bandit shall strike again. JR the lemming.
http://store.perspicuity.com/section...ming.sized.jpg

Silenced by the ignore feature.:D

Maybe... just maybe, it could be worded as follows:

"the teams clearly didn't adjust to how the refs called the game thus there were a lot of whistles which caused a substitution pattern of early & often"

I have a brilliant idea....let's get rid of officials for state championship games. That way the players truly would decide the game...

Nobody steal this idea, I'm marketing it to my state this year. :D

You clearly are incapable of learning. I knew a kid like you once in the military, I thought basic training would help him. It didn't. I thought experience would help him. It didn't.

So he moved to California and took up reffing???:D

Now that's classic!

No. He moved to Missouri and became an officer. :)

Here in Kentucky, the State Tourney our "Sweet 16" is offiiciated by the top 16 officials with in our 16 Regions. We have a rating system the is combined with the coaches(80%) and our assignor(20%) that gives us a ranking with in our region. This is used and sent to the state tourney director and he has the option to take 1 of the top 3 officials.. Don't really think we have a great system, but it's a work in progress. There are way to many things that can go on politically with this system because the coaches have so much power(80%) and of course it goes on. But after you finally make it to the state tourney, you are evaluated again by the state tourney directors and only guaranteed one game at state. This year I was able to work 3 and sat at the table as the alternate for 1 game. We always have 4 officials on every game, to chart the other officials calls and to be ready just in case we have an injury and need someone to take over. I was lucky enough to get to work the Semi Finals on saturday morning. Was my first state tourney and it was a wonderful experience. Can't wait to go back, hopefully get to work the finals.

Here in Canada....
 

....at least where I'm from....

Provincial championship spots are assigned depending on (1) where the tournament is being held, as they move around every year, (2) local association and (3) Provincial criteria.

If a tourney's being held in a particular association's area, they are guaranteed at least 2-3 assignments to that event. The other assc's within reasonable distance of that area will get the rest. For example, at the 4A Boys tournament, there are 12 officials; four from the area where the tournament's being held, and eight from the rest of the province. The bigger cities tend to get relatively more assignments, of course, but even if you're from the middle of nowhere - if you're good, you'll go eventually.

Locally, an association's evaluation committee will appoint people, presumably on merit, potential, etc, and send the list onto the provincial association, who will check exam scores and other criteria before signing off on it.

I think some provinces do it centrally - ie. the provincial association takes in names from around the province and then makes the assignments. I know B.C. does that.

I was assigned to a tournament this year, and was fortunate enough to do the championship game.

It still surprises me a bit that you allow coaches input into who gets to do state tournaments....and surprises me still that it's always been like that, and that it seems to actually work out alright. Here, certainly coaches can give input - and respected coaches' opinions are taken seriously - but they have zero impact on who goes and who doesn't.