Interesting comment from an official

[bigda65]

6th grade all star tournament,

I had watched several games. I noticed on several occasions, that a held ball was called, when one player had the ball with both hands and another player had one hand/arm on (or even near) the ball.

I spoke with the two different officials, right before the game, they were calling. I asked them about the quick held ball calls. ( I will quote the best I can)

One said, " as long as he has one hand/arm on the ball I will call a held ball "
I said " so you consider having one hand touching the ball control of the ball"

The other said " yes, that is the same as when a shooter shoots the ball and a defender pins the ball against the shooters hand(s) "
I said " I would agree with the held ball in that situation, but the only way to show control in the other situation, is to have the ball pinned against their body"

Anyway, my question is -- what am I missing, or flat out do not know, when it comes to calling a held ball ??

[Adam]

You've got officials calling quick held balls. Nothing to miss.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You've got officials calling quick held balls. Nothing to miss.

I agree - from your description - with this, but there's also many ways a person can control the ball with only one hand/arm.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I agree - from your description - with this, but there's also many ways a person can control the ball with only one hand/arm.

Maybe, but it's highly unlikely to happen when another player has full control of the ball.

[bigda65]

I just got the impression from the calls, and the discussion, that most of these officials believed that touching=controlling.

There were probably 10 different officials, all were quick on the held balls

[Adam]

Lower level games tend to get newer officials.
Or, maybe they were directed by the controling authority to call them quick due to previous issues. That said, it sounds like they just don't know the held-ball rule very well.

[lukealex]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Lower level games tend to get newer officials.
Or, maybe they were directed by the controling authority to call them quick due to previous issues. That said, it sounds like they just don't know the held-ball rule very well.

Very possible, I have been told this before with 5th and 6th graders in a rec league. Without that statement, this does sound like a quick held ball call.

[Goofyfor3]

As defined in the NFHS rule book -

Rule 4 Section 25 Articles 1 and 2:

Art. 1... Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Art. 2... An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

In 1 it seems as if hands and opponents (both plural) illustrate the idea that there needs to be four total hands? How does one define undue roughness for middle schoolers?

[vbzebra]

Officiating younger levels (middle school in this case), I found that quick "jump ball" calls are better for the safety for the kids. In every game, there were numerous alt possessions from the held balls. If player A has 2 hands on ball, and player B has 2 hands on ball. Obvious held ball. If A has 2 hands and B has 1 hand on ball, I think it would still be a held ball. But be watchful for B trying to get his 2nd hand on the ball and end up reaching in and commiting a foul. Had that alot too.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Goofyfor3

As defined in the NFHS rule book -

Rule 4 Section 25 Articles 1 and 2:

Art. 1... Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Art. 2... An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

In 1 it seems as if hands and opponents (both plural) illustrate the idea that there needs to be four total hands? How does one define undue roughness for middle schoolers?

If there are opponents then you will have more than one hand. Nowhere does it say 4 hands. What if one player is super strong and is cuffing the ball with one hand while the other player is trying to wrestle it away with 2 hands?

Defining undue roughness? That comes with experience and is a judgement that needs to be made by the official(s) ref'n the play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

Officiating younger levels (middle school in this case), I found that quick "jump ball" calls are better for the safety for the kids. In every game, there were numerous alt possessions from the held balls. If player A has 2 hands on ball, and player B has 2 hands on ball. Obvious held ball. If A has 2 hands and B has 1 hand on ball, I think it would still be a held ball. But be watchful for B trying to get his 2nd hand on the ball and end up reaching in and commiting a foul. Had that alot too.

Here's how you can tell.

If, right as you're blowing the whistle, one of the players gains control of the ball, you've called it to quickly. This is a general "rule of thumb," not a hard-and-fast concept. However, it'll give you a guideline to judge your calls by, and will help you avoid calling this too quickly in the future.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's how you can tell.

If, right as you're blowing the whistle, one of the players gains control of the ball, you've called it to quickly. This is a general "rule of thumb," not a hard-and-fast concept. However, it'll give you a guideline to judge your calls by, and will help you avoid calling this too quickly in the future.

Interesting. Never thought of that way of looking at it...I'll keep that in mind.

[bigda65]

Snaq,

That is exactly how it happened 99% of the time - - by the time the official came in with the two thumbs up, one had the ball, and in some cases had already passed to a teammate.

[Adam]

That strikes me as a quick whistle indicative of newer officials who don't fully understand the rule.

If I had to guess, I'd guess they probably call a blocking foul on a defender with LGP because he's not "set." They probably call traveling for ugly plays, they probably don't understand "incidental contact," they have about 4 or 5 three-second calls per game, and they'll call "first to touch" violations after a player has been out of bounds.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's how you can tell.

If, right as you're blowing the whistle, one of the players gains control of the ball, you've called it to quickly. This is a general "rule of thumb," not a hard-and-fast concept. However, it'll give you a guideline to judge your calls by, and will help you avoid calling this too quickly in the future.

Amen to that.......... quick whistle, very annoying..