Coach out of Box?
 

How would you deal with this. Team A gets rebound in backcourt and is triple teamed against baseline. Is a sectional champioship game in double overtime. Coach of A comes all the way down sideline to get a time out. Is actually in the other teams coaching box. Understanding she was just trying to get a timeout but is this an acceptable practice? What would you do? 3 whistle crew so I know someone should have been watching for the timeout. Thanks

Gets a TO from me.

1) Grant the time out,
2) Warn her to stay in the box,
3) Try to listen/watch better.

First of all, she gets no TO from me while she is out of the coach's box.

Secondly, if she is way down in the other coach's box then I'm busting out my video recorder. :D

Seriously though, if she's past half-court then it's gonna be very hard not to call a 'T'.

Even in the heat of the moment, during a double OT game, where she is obviously trying to get someone's attention unsuccessfully?

Same here, coach has to stay in the box to communicate with me. It sounds as if coach walked past the scorers table to make the request. Hard to say what one would do unless they're in that situation, but maybe I'd hit the whistle, warn coach & put her back in the box, then grant the TO since we have a dead ball.
FTR, when the trap is on officials should be anticipating a TO request & occasionally glancing in coaches direction (especially on a 3 person crew).
I don't know if the L & T were tableside or opposite but the new L has got to be aware. Probably not much to referee in the FC when trap is on in the BC, JMO.

So what happens in the 1st round of the state tournament when the other coach does the same thing in the 3rd quarter with a 10 point lead?

I think the official who was consumed by the play should call a technical foul on his two partners for not being aware in a situation where a time-out should be expected. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's right.

But I too coach and can see it happen. If I am yelling and signalling to get a TO and the ref can't hear me or doesn't see me and the game is on the line, I might try to get their attention by moving closer and yelling louder, etc. And, in the heat of the moment, I/they could "stray....."

Are you saying we should "think outside the box"?

Ewwww - sorry for that one. :o

C'mon, your not sorry for that one! That's just YOU! ;)

Classic example of everyone ball watching:

1. Warn for being out of box
2. Grant TO
3. Pretend to listen to the coach complain about nobody granting her TO request.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Count me in this camp, but I'll add one.

3. Pretend to listen to the coach complain about nobody granting her TO request.

How is that? look below:)

Nope. :)
Do what my late grandfather did when he couldn't hear you.

Smile and nod.

I think we need to be aware at junctures of the game where teams/coaches may want a timeout. Usually, coaches start out reasonably and won't run out on the court unless their initial request isn't acknowledged. During the timeout, I would address timeout awareness with the crew. When we are bringing the teams out of the timeout, I would casually tell the coach something like, "Coach, I know you are trying hard to get our attention, but I really need you to stay in your box."

I think most coaches are just caught up in the intensity of the game and just need to be reminded to bring it down a notch.

If she's in the <b>OTHER</b> coaching box, it's an automatic "T" imo. That's freaking ridiculous.

We spend way too much time making up excuses for ignoring over-the-top behavior like this. If you want to warn, then you had better be prepared to warn the <b>other</b> head coach when s/he comes into the <b>far</b> bench area to set his defense in the last minute. And if I was the <b>other</b> coach, you had damn well better believe that I'd be in the other coaching box at some time before the game ended.

Being aware is great, but the ballhandler was triple-teamed in the backcourt. That probably means that we have 10 players and so (hopefully) 3 officials in the backcourt. So which official exactly should turn his/her attention away from this high-intensity situation because they think the coach might want a timeout? Should it be the new Trail, who is responsible for the endline out of bounds call? Should it be the Center, who is helping with the contact (or, if the ball is on the C's side, has primary responsibility for the play)? Or should it be the new Lead who is responsible for 6 players who are scrambling to either get open or play deny defense?

The coach can request a timeout all he/she wants. The officials' first priority is to the play on the court. IF the play is such that the official can look away to verify the request, then he/she can grant it. But in a case like this, screw the timeout request. Officiate the freakin' play. If the coach has really been coaching, then the kids should know that they can request the timeout themselves.

oldschool:


Here is how I would have handled the situation:

WHACK!! Coach do you still want a timeout?

MTD, Sr.

Ben Howland in the 2nd half of the recent UCLA/Stanford game came onto the court to call a timeout at the end of the game. He did not get T'd.

By rule, it's an easy T. I really don't care that all they wanted was a time-out, there is NO reason for the coach to be that far down the court...

Having said that, if there were 10 evaluators/observers at this game, 5 would probably tell you to call the T immediately and the other 5 would say it was "good game management" to not call the T...but imo, if we follow the rules, there really isn't much that the assignor or evaluators can ding us for. I can justify to everyone involved why I DID call the T based on the rules...I can't use any rules basis to justify why I did NOT call the T.

You are wise beyond your height.

Very well stated. Stoopid rule.

From POE 3A in last year's FED rulebook...."Coaches attempting to call a timeout during playing action is a continuing problem. When player control is lost, officials must concentrate on playing action while attempting to determine if a timeout should be granted." The same rationale applies to this situation.

There is always an official facing the table. With awareness and peripheral vision, you can see a coach going F*$*ing crazy trying to call a time-out. Happens all the time.

In my opinion, a T in this situation does not fit the game. I've heard Dick Cartmell speak several times at camps and he always refers to technical fouls as: "Our last resort to manage a situation."

So my suggestion is to do the right thing for the game and not put a decision in the game that will get you in the paper for the wrong reasons.

Absolutely FALSE!!! There is always an official on the side of the court opposite the table. But if the play is on the endline opposite the coach's bench, that "opposite" official is looking AWAY from the bench (particularly if the play is on his/her side of the court). This is a triple-team near the endline. There's no way that the "opposite" official can look at the bench without sacrificing coverage on the play.

So what would the right thing be if...

1) the opposing coach had received a 'T' for bench decorum infractions earlier in the game?
or
2) if the coach calling the TO had been seat-belted b/c of a bench technical in the 2nd quarter?

What does that have to do with a coach being so far out of her box?:confused:

The coach was in the other team's bench area. Trying to make excuses for her behavior is simply ridiculous imo.

So if I don't call the T and the team whose coach was at the other end of the floor ends up winning, and the losing coach goes to the press to say "Hey. Check this out. We got cheated." - well then we just got in the papers for the wrong reason.

Like I said, I CAN justify calling the T if I need to...I CAN"T justify ignoring it if I need to...

Dick Carmell would call a "T" in this situation. It's that obvious...and especially with the POE that the NCAA issued this year on coaches being out of their boxes. Unfortunately, other officials don't have his testicular fortitude. That's my opinion.

If you're trying to use the rationale that you shouldn't make any call because it might get you in the paper, you're in the wrong bidness. You call something...anything...strictly on merit. Period.

In fairness to Z, I don't think it has anything to do with that. I think he was replying to my "screw the timeout request" comment.

IOW, I don't think he was saying that you shouldn't T the coach for being in the wrong box. He was merely saying that somebody should always be able to check for the request before it gets to the point where the coach is running into the backcourt.

That official will see the head coach that's trying to call a TO from the opposing team's bench area though.:)

That was my point. It's irrelevant whether you shoulda, coulda, woulda. You have to deal with what actually happened. And what happened is that you've got a coach yelling at you from the <b>OTHER</b> team's bench area. Don't blame the officials if they can't get a TO request in situations like this because the situation has dictated that they can't turn away from the action.

If you've already T'd the coach of the opposing team, then I think your hands have been tied. However, the action needs to be blatant and obvious on tape, without a shadow of a doubt. Sometimes I wonder if the actions of coaches described on this board are 100% accurate. :> I do not believe this was the scenario the original poster mentioned.

Second, I spend more time with the NCAA rules, but I believe an NFHS coach may stand to request a timeout once they have been belted. I may be wrong, so someone please correct me if so.

I am obviously in the minority on this board with my philosophy. I have found that the most successful officials are the ones who can accurately apply the rules. This includes realizing there are "gray" areas of the rulebook subject to interpretation. Great discussion though......

I deal with both rule sets. In NFHS the coach may stand to request a T/O once seatbelted.

But my point is that we shouldn't have to put so many variables in play to make a decision. Say it was an NCAA game in which this occurred, would it matter if the coach in question had previously received a warning or T for being outside the coach's box?

Tio, what could be <b>more</b> blatant and obvious on tape thas a head coach standing in the <b>OTHER</b> team's bench area?

Frankly, this is all I needed to change my opinion. I can't argue with this.

Really hard for me to deal with what actually happened when I hear these kinds of stories. With 3 officials on the floor, we should never miss a coach wanting a time-out, especially in a situation like this when we know one might be coming. There is always someone with enough peripheral that they can see the coach gesturing madly. If this happened at state, you'd have to call the T. And the entire crew should be expecting to work the consolation bracket for the rest of the tournament.

Really? Based on what? Then why respond to it? I've found it's best to answer a scenario as if it is correct as described.

Are going to discuss Eliot Spitzer again? No? OK.

The idea that T's have to be the very last resort - that the coach has to blatantly and obviously be misbehaving, that officials have to swallow hard and deal with it some other way without taking care of busines - that type of thinking was thrown out the window with the POE on bench decorum. BTW this has gotten so out of hand that people are even coming here to this forum to post that we need to have a damn good reason to take back to the assignor for T'ing an 8th grade kid. Can you imagine that?

This is nuts.

By approachable, don't be thin skinned, be professional (where have I heard that before?) but when you need to take care of business just do it. Because if you don't they will walk all over you.

In the OP I don't know how you calmly walk the coach away from his oppoenent's bench and back across the midline to his bench without T'ing him. I really don't. Do you think the OTHER coach (assuming he knows what he's doing) is going to let you get away with that? Talk about game management... now you're in a situation where you let coach A off without a T and you have to take all sorts of BS from coach B because of it.

yeah, good idea.

:rolleyes:

Then it really, really really becomes a no-brainer. The NCAA made bench decorum and coaches being out of their boxes one of the major POE's this year. That coach being in the other coaches box had better get rung up.

And for zebraman - I agree that it should not have been missed. Pne of the officials should have seen the request...but you know as well as I do that sometimes we get focused on the immediate play and hope our partners cover everything else for us for a couple seconds. But if they don't, we still whack that coach...and then we work the early game on Saturday and go home!!:o

With all due respect, that's boolsh!t! If they <b>didn't</b> call the "T", I might agree with it.

The officials were concentrating on the play. That's what they're supposed to be doing. If they miss a TO call out that was out of their vision, too bad. Having that happen occasionally is a byproduct of a rule that was never well thought out in the first place.

Being the original poster it was described as it actually happened. There is no exaggeration involved. Actually the crew did T up the other coach( not the one out of the box) later in the 2nd overtime for complaining about a few calls. Game was decided at that point and coach was looking for it to vent.

Coach's box privileges. That privilege is lost for certain offenses. One of those offenses would include standing in the opposing team's coach's box. :eek:

Not to pick a nit, but "Coaching box." Wouldn't want the coaches to think they own that box.

I call boolsh!t on your boolsh!t :D Bank on an early game for those 3 officials who didn't see the coach asking for a time-out way before that coach decided to use the other coaching box too. :eek: Officials in a 3-person crew can concentrate on the play and still have enough awareness and peripheral vision to see a time-out request, especially in a situation where it's expected.

The rule is what it is. We have to deal with it.

Yeah, you may be right. Maybe someone should have anticipated the TO

But that does not grant the coach the right to waltz into his opponent's box.

Missing the TO might very well get these officials an early next game. However, after further review, I'm pretty sure ignoring the T will only make their predicament worse.

Completely agree.

As I said before, I agree fully with ScrappyDoo's post #18. There are situations where the officials can <b>NOT</b> be expected to immediately get and confirm a TO request, and this might be one of them.

You can't fault the officials imo for missing a TO request under certain conditions. You <b>can</b> fault the officials if they let a coach away with being so far out of their box though.

Gonna have to agree to disagree, Z.

That's why they call it a discussion board. :)

Z, are you saying that you wouldn't call the T??? Or just that someone should have seen the coach earlier - before he ended up in the next county?

If you're saying the first - what justification are you using?

If you're saying the second (which I think you are) then I agree, but we still have to call the T. Once they cross that county line, all bets are off.

Rockyroad,

I'd call the T and then call my wife to tell her that I'd be home real early from the tournament. My partners would do the same. :)

Agreed...and if I was one of your partners, I'd buy you a beer before you left as my way of saying "Sorry, partner."

At that point, I might need more than one. :)

Coach! Get back in the box!
 

http://z.about.com/d/babyparenting/1...ckinthebox.jpg:p

Yeah, what to do when the coach is 35 feet out of the box really is one of the gray areas in the rules :rolleyes:

As a coach, when asked during pre-game if i have any more questions, I usually tell the officials that since my voice naturally lacks volume, I dont yell very much unless its to request a time out. I also tell them if they dont hear me right away, they might see me jumping up and down screaming and waving my arms like a crazy man.

If i were to run towards an official to try to get their attention to get a Time out, i certainly would not run to the official all the way at the other end of the court because:
#1 risk of a Technical foul
#2 Im lazy and that's a long run
#3 there is usually a ref closer to me that I wont have to run on to the court to get his attention, and i've noticed that if an official realizes that they didnt realize a coach was calling for a TO right away, they will grant it ASAP and usually explain to their partner that was pre-occupied with watching the triple-team that a TO was requested PRIOR to the turnover (being 40+ feet away from the play, watching the other players on the court, and realizing late that the coach had been trying to request a Time out, that official that is away from the ball will usually give you the benefit of the doubt on the sequence of events)

so if i WERE to run 50 or so feet across the court in front of the opposing bench, as a coach i am probably expecting a techincal foul...