Your thoughts please.
 

8th Grade All Star Tournament. Pool game is going just fine no complaining or even any chirping from any coaches. One team has a kid, who in his mind, never commits a foul and always gets fouled on every shot. He usually makes some whiney face but nothing I can't ignore. 1.6 seconds left this kids team is down three and have to go the length of the floor, they try to throw it deep to him, and the defender bats it down. The kid then flops as if he is trying to draw a foul. No call horn sounds game over.

Here is where the trouble starts. The kid turns to me and very plainly yells "you Suck" and then briskly walks away. I head straight for him and tell "you want to continue to play this weekend you will need to keep you mouth shut". I did not raise my voice nor seem in any way excited. At that point his coach comes charging at me and tells me to leave his player alone. I explain to him what his kid said, and his response was "he is a 14 year old kid, be the bigger man and walk away." My response back was "I did not realize you allow 14 year olds to speak to officials that way." To make a very long story shorter, I have been disturbed by this all weekend.

My question to you all is: Did i handle this ok?? Should I have just walked away from the kid?? Should i have t'd him up (which would not have hurt his status for future games)??

Any advice would be appreciated.

If I knew that a T would have hurt his status for future games, I would have T him up.

It would not hurt him in the future. only if it was his second.

After the game is over, if you're not going to T the kid up, leave it alone.

That said, I'd go ahead and ring him up with a T. He earned it, and whether it affects his future games is not your concern.

Seems to me your choices are:

1) head straight for him and tell "you want to continue to play this weekend you will need to keep you mouth shut".
2) Ignore it completely.
3) Assess a post-game technical foul.

IMHO, the only one you definitely should NOT do is #1. Chasing down a kid after the game is over looks bad and can't possibly lead to anything good.

If the technical foul will matter (perhaps there's a tournament rule about accumulated T's), then give it. I have, in fact, done this myself in tournaments. Otherwise, I would probably simply ignore it.

To each his/her own, but I probably would've addressed the coach about the comment & asked that he handle it as the game was over.
Perception-wise, coach saw you chasing after his "star player" who had just suffered a loss and probably wasn't aware that such comments were made.

It sounds as if you had a few opportunities to address his unsporting behavior before it got out of hand.

He usually makes some whiney face but nothing I can't ignore.

Gestures maybe?
"Coach your player would be wise to resist from making any more gestures after my calls or lack-there-of"

I'm learning that the more vocal we are & the more prevenitive we try to be, the better our games are managed.

ch1town, I wish in hindsight I would have just adressed the coach and not the emotional player. Good learning experience for me.

Yeah, T him up or walk away. By following him and asking the kid a question, you're only exposing yourself to more potential trouble. What if the kid had replied, "F U"? Do you then give him 2 T's (1st for the "You suck", 2nd for the "F U")? In this case, the 2nd T probably could've been avoided by not talking with him.

It's a tough decision to make in this case. Walking away and doing nothing is sometimes hard to do, and almost condones the players behavior in his mind, as there were no consequences to their action. And hitting him with a T would send a message to a good coach and good parents that something is wrong with this kid, so maybe they can straighten him out at home. I've had situations where I've T'd up kids for various types of unsportsmanlike behavior, and their parents make them go up to me after the game and apologize. I've also experienced the opposite end of the spectrum of parenting where you can clearly see the bad apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

But regarding your question, if this were an isolated incident and you hadn't heard anything from the kid all game, I might just do nothing. But since you said this kid has a habit of whining and being overly dramatic, I'd respond with some post-game drama of my own and hit him with a T. But it's unfortunate, since his team lost and the free throws wouldn't affect the outcome, the other team wouldn't shoot any shots. I guess you'd just make a note in the book and move on.

Yeh, with hindsight that's probably the best way.

An 8th grader? I'd give him at least 1 T, quite probably 2. They have to learn somewhere. Let whomever is in charge of the touranment know exactly what happened and move on from there. I wouldn't bother with the coach at all. I assume this is some sort of weekend travelling team or AAU. These coaches are often whomever has the time to drive the kids to the games. They usually do not understand the relationsip between officials, players and coaches. I wouldn't let what a child said to you bug you all weekend. You are right. he is wrong.

20-20 says that you should have dealt with this player much earlier. (Mistkae #1.) A quick note to the coach that his player is focusing on calls that aren't there would be helpful.

In addition, you ignored the player all game, then on a situation after the last past of the game, you decide to initiate a conversation and say something to him? That was mistake #2.

You have to ignore him here, or go straight to the T. However, given that you never dealt with him previously, I think you have to ignore him here too. Calling a T would only esculate the situation - the coach and player would likely (just my bet) respond that would warrant a second T, which is a huge can of worms.

In summary, I think you should have been disturbed by the events, because I think that you could have handled it better. Take a big learning experience from this: deal with a whiney kid early! In my experience, I get less than one of these types of player per season - so they're not at all common.

I would have gone up to the coach after the game and said, "You suck". When he started to react, I would interrupt and say, "Coach, I was just telling you what your player said to me at the end of the game. Now, I think you should say to him everything you were going to say to me."

Also, I would have made sure the player got grounded until he was 21 by his parents, became disqualified from ever getting a drivers' license and had all his scholarship offers withdrawn. I'd also make sure he had to share a room with his sister and be forced to go to Barry Manilow concerts.

There - that should be enough punishment. :cool:

I agree with Chitown. Why did you ignore his gestures? Addressing that may have prevented the situation at the end of the game.

I would just ignore his comments at the end of the game. If you have a good rapport with the coach, it might be worth mentioning and left to him to handle as he chooses, but I don't think a post-game T does much for the situation.

Sure it does. At this level, it teaches the player that the final horn does not give him license to get stupid.

At the high school level, those Ts can add up, even without ejections. Colorado, for example, wants all Ts reported just for this reason; so they can identify repeat offenders even when they aren't getting ejected.

I guess we will disagree then. Calling a T after the game is over just draws undue attention to an official or crew. This situation should have been managed before the game, not after. Now if the kid chases the crew off the floor, that is a different story.

I'm at work in Denver, and my rule book is at home with my computer, but there is a case play which shows definitively that the NFHS agrees with me on this.

I agree with this, in most cases. For the same reason you want to quickly deal with a coach who constantly yet relatively quietly chirps, "travel, double dribble, that was a foul...." you want to address a whiny player early.

This might just be flagrant, IMO.

Does the Fed also advocate an official chasing down a player and issuing an ultimatum?

I think the official has to eat this one. No T and learn from the situation to improve, just as I'm sure that s/he did.

Come on, Juggler. You know me well enough to know that's not what I said. In fact, my original post on this said either give the T or let it go. My only point with Tio was that giving a T here is not the narcissistic move he claimed it was "Calling a T after the game is over just draws undue attention to an official or crew."

Chasing down the player is the worst move, and the OP seems to have learned that.

Why does the official have "to eat this one?"

Couldn't agree with this more. No way am I letting an 8th grader address me in this manner. It has to be dealt with. If you are taking this from an 8th grader, what are you going to take from a high school player?

Does the official have to eat this one? No, not by any means.

Should the official eat this one? Probably.

Why? Because he did a poor job of managing this problem waiting to happen for the entire game. It doesn't make much sense to start managing properly now that the game is over. JMO

What????

The kid started the who exchange with "You Suck" then walked away. I agree that the officials shouldn't have followed him to have a conversation but if an 8th grader says that to me, it WILL be answered by a whistle and a T...perhaps a flagrant T depending on the circumstances.

I can't really disagree with this. I can't imagine letting it go that long. I've been known to approach a player and say, "I don't expect you to agree with every call I make, but I do expect you to control yourself." I've done it a handful of times, and it's worked every time.

Now, if I'd done this, and it didn't work, I'd talk to the coach. After that, it might be T time.

If I'd done this, and it did work; and then the player ended up following the 4th quarter horn with "You suck," it's T time also.

Yes sir, I totally concur!

8th grade? Flagrant "T". It's "lesson time", folks. Btw, it's not only "lesson time" for the player; it's "lesson time" for his coach also. It's part of our job. Unfortunately, it's also true that some officials will always have any one of a million excuses to walk away from a situation like this. Anything to avoid confrontation. They don't help the rest of us that will have to deal with the l'il sh!t down the line.

You're right - I stretched things a bit there.

I just don't think that "you suck" is enough to start being consistent with the rule, particularily when it's at the end of the game. He should eat it, rather.

In the OP, the acts of the player were clearly to influence the decision of the officials, but no T was ever issued. It certainly sounds like the player's attitude continued to rise because the official didn't take care of business earlier.

Edit: to deal with nothing during the game and then issue a T at the end sends mixed signals. Yes, the player should not have told the referee that "[he] sucks", but I also believe that the art of officiating comes into play: the player didn't have any chance to adapt to the rulings of the official. He a player kept doing the NBA-step travel before a shot, and was called for it, then s/he could adapt to the judgment of the official.

Or, as it appears to me, the player knew his boundaries during the game. After the game, he felt he had license to say what he wanted. By "eating" this, the official passively tells the player that he was right.

I'm with JR on this one. Flagrant T even if it's the end of the game. Get it recorded and on the book for this little turd. Even if it has no bearing on the outcome...report it to admin. Whomever said it makes the crew look bad at the end of the game...I couldn't disgree more. Swallowing that crap from a 14 year old at ANY time looks worse.

I can't really say what I would have done because my emotions are not in it reading it right now....After the game...I'm probably going to ignore it and show know emotion that I heard it and I might talk to his coach afterwards....I think you could have prevented it with some dialogue to him or the coach earlier in the game....

Here is a suggestion...If you feel like you want to pass on the T and you feel like you need to say something to him or him and the coach together....He's an 8th grader...why not use this as a means to simply educate him about the possibilities of what COULD happen.

Sure, he probably doesn't want to listen, but if you are "chasing" him down....Why not just put your arm around him and take bits and pieces of some of the things that have been posted here....

"Son, I undertand you are frustrated with the loss and the calls....do yourself a favor as you move up the ranks of Bball and watch how you address the officials. Comments like that could get you tossed out of a game and could prevent you from playing in future games and I'm sure you don't want to hurt your team/that to happen."

Again, it's 8th grader and if it's AAU I am sure the kid has been told how good he is the past 3 years....

That's a REALLY BAD idea after an emotional outburst by a 14 year old that isn't your son or daugter.

Could be. But we're told, at least in my understanding, to deal with non-compliance when it deals with unsportingness. I think being inconsistent with such is a form of baiting.

PS: it also says that the kid flops at the end of a game. Why wasn't a T issued for this? The player needs some serious coaching about the game of basketball.

Reading about the crap that some officials have to deal with on this forum, I am lucky with the athletes that come my way. I also know that the officiating has improved in my area over the years. I hope that it part of the bigger picture.

Agreed. Contact should be avoided.

????

It very well may be....however, I have used it before and will do so in the future....

I did it Saturday on a player who picked up a T early in the first quarter when he took exception to a foul/headlock after he put on a very nice pump fake....Both players got to jawing so I hit them both with Ts. It was later in the quarter and the kid who got fouled still seemed upset and make an overly aggresive swipe that drew some contact which he was whistled for... took him aside and said:

"Let me explain to you what is going to happen if you keep this up and pick up another T....You'll be done for this game and if your team advances, you will not be playing in that game. Do you want that to happen?" He answered NO....I then said, "Do yourself and your team a favor and get your head right, right now and play under control". He said "yes sir" and I had no issues with him the rest of the game....

These are kids...there are different ways to teach them...They don't really have that ability to see past point A to B....they don't know what lies ahead in C, D and E......In the OP's sitch...I don't really know that the T after the game is done is going to do anything for him....I'd probalby choose to handle it differently...something that I would hope to be more effective and sink in....That's all...At a higher level....sure, slap that T....the HS Assocs. will find out about it....AAU, Travel/Rec stuff...what's that T gonna do...A big "So Effin' What....You still SUCK!" :o

Look Most agree I should have done something different ( a T or talk to the coach) however, don't villafy me for not saying anything to him during the game. We all see players with a mild reaction to a call. He never reacted verbally to any play during the game. That obviously earns a warning if not a T. But basketball can be emotional and a frowny face can normally be overlooked. I just don't at all agree with the point of view that I let the kid get away with crap the whole game, therefore I can't do anything to him at the end of the game. I think from that standpoint you had to be there to see what I mean. I guess the YOU SUCK took me off guard, even from this kid. I hope I mad myself clear here.

At this point, my only concern is to give what was earned (the T).
If you need to know what it accomplishes (aside from following the rules and casebook), it's easy.
It teaches the little turn that the final horn isn't a license to be stupid. The fact that he saved it for after the horn tells me that's precisely what he thought.

I think people are reading your OP differently than you intended it. I will say, however, that consistent "looks," "glares," or even "scowls" can be dealth with by talking to the kid like I mentioned previously. If you think they were all too minor to address, even in aggregate, then you still have the right to T the kid afterwards.

Is that really our role? I can see your point as far as trying to "counsel" a kid as to where his behavior may lead...but I don't think that's our place during (or immediately following) a game . By 14, these kids know what is and is not acceptable behavior on the court...further, I think pointing out where it may lead is the coach/parents job.

Never, ever put your arm around a player.

Ever!

BZ....it depends on the level I'm working with. I sit on the Board for a local rec league (grades 3-8) and I also officiate in it. I work a ton of JRHS ball because that's the level I like...I do some summer HS stuff. Our league, the emphasis is on sportsmanship and teaching the kids the game. I agree that at 14 and AAU/Travel...the kids SHOULD know....but that is a whole 'nother story that we could talk hours about (single family homes, absentee fathers).

In short...yes, I feel part of my role as an official, I also look at as an ambassador to the game and teacher of the game for those youth I have in my leagues. I also happen to coach so perhaps I keep a little of each hat on when officiating and dealing with some of these types of situations. I like when the kids show up at the gym and want to know if I'm on their court today....That comes from my efforts both on and off the floor...

I look at it like this..Some of our action/dealings today could help a kid make a school team or get or keep a kid from losing a scholarship later if we handle it right (and not saying a T in the OP's post wouldn't help). I can't give you all the scenarios where I would talk to a kid or just let my T and his coach handle it....For ME...it's a bigger picture thing because I have watched many a player toss away their talent that could have put them in a better position later in life. As I tell some of the HS kids I know who are on Varsity teams..."Use the game, don't let it use you..."

I hope that gives you some insight to me as a person/official/coach and why I'm involved in the game and work the levels I work.

Back in the day I was told by an evaluator/high level official to never put your arm around anyone. About a year later I saw him do exactly what he said not to do.... and it worked like a charm. Go figure. Sometimes, in the end: who knows what will work and what won't.

You can't know that for sure.

I agree with your post Snaqwells. I guess my whole premise of posting is, I am mostly a Varsity level Ref. I have done 2 girls sectionals and did my first boys sectional this year. I am just mad at myself that I put myself in that position. i am sure we all have done something on the court we regret, but this just was out of character for me, and a situation I want to and have learned from.

True, but it's not a court of law. I don't have to, and that's not why I'm calling the T anyway. I'm calling the T because the comment deserves it, and the NFHS wants it called.

Teaching the kid a lesson is only an added benefit of the call.

Agreed. If it weren't for the mistakes I've made, I wouldn't be nearly so smart as I think I might be.

In the end, that's really what matters. Hopefully the kid learned as well....maybe your words did work on him.

And putting your arm around the l'il turd and whispering nicey-nices in his ear will never teach him a damn thing either, Dr. Phil.

There is nowayinhell any official in any sport should ever let any participant in one of his games get away with telling him that he sucks. I don't care which one of the million excuses gets used either. And that goes double for youth sports!

I would have loved to officiate in this game!

Me too. :)

Have fun explaining this as a flagrant T. I hope your coordinator agrees with you.

Again...depends on the level J R. In my case from Saturday...it worked quite well...the kid calmed down and I had no issues with him after our chat...That's not gonna work in all cases though....

Kid tries to chase me down while I'm leaving the court to yell at me? Haven't had an assignor yet who wouldn't back up a flagrant call.

WTF else would it be??? A kid chases after you as you are leaving the court to yell at you, and you're gonna do nothing?:confused:

Let me add that at this level (8th grade All Stars with NBA contracts just waiting to be signed), if I lose games for giving a flagrant technical to a kid who chased me down as I was trying to leave the court, I'll go find another 8th grade all star tournament to work where kids are taught to behave like human beings.

You must forgive Rocky, he's had a very difficult season dealing with his own coordinator and is a little <s>gunshy</s> sensitive... of course why someone would be even remotely concerned about explaining a T to the coordinator of a 8th grade CYO game is beyond me, but obviously some are. :shrug:

Anyways Rock, go lie down for a while, at least until you stop shaking...

But, they're all stars; feeding into high level freshman leagues.

For you guys who think nothing should have been done, ask yourselves this: if you wouldn't give a kid a T for saying to you "You suck", what would he have to say for you to give him a T? A phrase that includes a word that rhymes with "suck"? Are you saying anything short of that is OK? That's fuc*ed! Er, wait - that's a T.

I can't imagine any situation in which I wouldn't give a T to a player - any player at any level - for saying "You suck" to me under any circumstances.

Doing youth tournaments you usually do multiple games. When does your jurisdiction end after a game. You mentioned you would T up after the game finished. I don't have my rule book here. Thanks

Once the score is approved or the officials have left the visual confines of the court, the jurisdiction has ended.
In the original post of this thread, the comments came immediately after the 4th quarter horn sounded.

The book has nothing about multiple games...it ends when all officials leave the visual confines of the gym.

Hmmm... good point.

Wouldn't want to blow your big chance to move up to the big time because you're thin-skinned, unprofessional and un-approachable... (hey Rocky, where have I heard that before

Speaking of breaking into the big time and blowing your chances (cough cough) ... how would you like to be Eliot Spitzer today?

You want to re-think that?;)

The final score is approved and our jurisdiction ends when we leave the visual confines.

Hopefully, I'll remember to check my book once I get home tonight. I might be conflating the two. :D

edited to add:
I just realized, I was using the official MA interpretation. ;)

Trust me, don't ever, ever touch a player.

Along those lines was at the IU/NU game a few weeks back at NU. Officials run off the court , right by NU student section. One official, has both hands across his midsection as he leaves, escorted by security avoiding any "He touched, grabbed, pinched, pushed, punched me" claim from a whacko fan.

Why whatever do you mean Dan??? I have no idea - none I tell you - what you could be referring to.

See, those hypnotism sessions are working quite well!!

I guess when I think about that aspect of it, it's good reasoning....

Do you feel the same about two kids who decide they want to go toe to toe....and again, I'm talking about lower level stuff...not necessarily V/NCAA. I just feel on some levels we have a responsibility to ensure the safety of the kids and I'm willing to deal with any backlash that comes from me getting between and seperating two kids by grabbing/bearhugging one and moving him out of the immediate area.

That backlash could be severe. I'm not willing to risk that. Use your whistle loudly, repeatedly, and in close proximity until they step back.
If they're small enough, I might step in between; but I'm not going to initiate contact in this case.

I've been taught over and over again that if I see two players getting heated and can get between them without physically moving them - ie, they haven't started physically touching each other yet - then I can make that call. But if they are too close or already involved in an altercation, do as Snaqs posted and wait for security/game administration to separate them.

If it were me officiating a lower level game, I might try to get between players before it came to fisticuffs. But if they had started fighting, no way would I personally try to break it up. Leave that to the site admins and coaches. This was one of the first things we were told at our training classes as we studied to become certified. Never touch/grab a player. Period.

As an example, and I don't think this is too far fetched, but suppose you're working a girls game (level doesn't matter - 5th grade, high school varsity, whatever). You've got a hard foul, and 1 of the girls takes issue with it, and the 2 start going at it. You're trying to break things up, when your hand accidentally brushes across her chest in the process. Think she cares it was inadvertant contact and that all you were trying to do is break up the fight? Think her parents care? A boys game would probably be more forgiving for the above incident, however I don't think we could say it's ok to break up fights during boys contests, but not girls. Best advice is to leave them alone. Coaches can and should restrain their players. Our job is to penalize the offenders according to rule.

Mommy needs to be prosecuted for neglect.

My fear, though, would be that I'd grab the kid's arm too hard and cause damage. I'm staying out and taking numbers.

There was a game this season at the high school level where a fight broke out. Player A wound up to swing at player B, ref grabbed his arm before he could swing. After game, there is a knock on the locker room door and the cops are ready to arrest the official who grabbed the kid's arm. Mommy wanted to press charges. Cops refused to.

I'm a basketball official, not a bouncer. That said, when I see it right in front of me, I'd probably do the same.

Hill Street Blues "Be careful out there"

Gents...I want to say thanks for all the input on this...it's been interesting to see some sides I had not given a lot of thought to and will most certainly take into account going forward.

Fullor...your last post....crazy that a parent would want to press charges in something like that but unfortunatley...it doesn't surprise me either...

When you see me make the sign of the "T", you will wake up feeling refreshed and will remember nothing. Ready? Here goes. How are you feeling? Fine? Good. Now - YOU'RE OUTTA HERE!

You are now getting sleepy...sleepy...sleepy...

When you wake up, you will be no taller than Chuck!

http://www.kicktheemailhabit.com/images/Hypnotist.gif

Colt - think about it this way. What if you get between the two and "touch" one a bit too hard and they lose their balance, fall and smack their head on the court.....and there you are...... It could happen.

Makes me think long and hard about getting involved at all, above a bunch of loud, repeated whistles as has been discussed.

But, when the fit hits the shan, if it ever does, I'll see how I react in the heat of the moment.

Number of years ago - boys Varsity. Two players start swinging. Ref steps up and grabs one of them (the more aggressive of the two) from behind to pull him away. Other player takes that opportunity to throw a nice right hook to the jaw of the player whose arms are pinned by the official. Result: the official ended up paying for the dental work to replace two lost teeth...never grab a player involved in a fight!

Hill Street Blues ...
 

Hot girl. I mean hot lawyer. I mean great television show.

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/ar...524758-000.jpg

Two years ago, intramural league- two big guys chest bump down low after a hard foul, L steps in, grabs one of the players arms, and receives a swift left hook.

Luckily, private schools aren't courts of law, and the player ended up getting in a good bit of trouble. Either way, you won't see me touching any of the players.

Be careful under there.

Mommy needs to get a grip and cut the apron strings.

She can debrief me anytime!

If Eliot Mess only called her first.

Hill Street Blues On Official Forum ???
 

http://re3.yt-thm-a04.yimg.com/image/25/m5/3383287594

This is been bugging me for a few days. Does a quote from the television show, Hill Street Blues, belong on a Forum for basketball officials.

Yes, of course it does. Why, you may ask?

http://www.geocities.com/televisionc...enko_small.jpg

The police officer on the left is Bobby Hill, played by actor Michael Warren, a former college basketball player.

http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m4/3011759513

As a college basketball player, Warren was an All-American at UCLA, where he and Lew Alcindor (later to be known in his professional NBA career as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) were members of the 1967 and 1968 Bruin teams that won two NCAA championship titles under coach John Wooden. Warren, the smallest Bruin starter at 5' 11", averaged 12.4 points as a junior in 1967 and was named to the NCAA All-Tournament team in 1968.