Tenn/UF--giving help outside your area but getting it right
 

Anyone see the Vols(A)/Gators(B) game last night.

Less than 10 seconds left Vols have a spot throw-in in its b/c on the baseline. A1 tries a short pass to A2 right in front of him but B1 immediately knocks the ball from from A2's hands OOB. Trail gives ball back to Vols but then "C" runs over and they have discussion. Lead (crew chief I believe) then comes to join in but appears to just listen. After conference the "C" blows his whistles and points for Gators to get the ball.

Replays show conclusively that the ball did hit the top of A1's foot OOB.

Thoughts? Would you have done the same if you were the "C" in this sitch? How about if it were 14 minutes left in the 1st half? Should it make a difference? In the sitch above, after the decision was made do you think the Trail should have come out the conference and been the one to signal Gators' ball?

:D What would Doug Shows have done? :D

Not criticizing, just wanna hear different philosophies or folks who have had similar game scenarios.

ANYTIME anything like this happens where your partner sees something to change the call, the calling official (in this case the T) should be the one to change his/her call. Same official making the original call should make the correction, not the person who saw it different.

Hopefully as the C helping out, I am helping by looking somewhere other than at the throw-in spot. However, if I do give help and my partner accepts it, he changes his call. I don't make the call because that looks like I overruled.

Every time.

Same call.

Never.

IMO, the best way to handle the sitch is for the C to provide more info to the T (via their discussion as your described), then have the T reverse his own call by blowing his whistle and then pointing in the new direction.

My responses are the exact reverse of Jug's because of what zebraman wrote. As the C, I am NOT watching the play that is TWO feet in front of my partner. If he can't handle that play, then that's his problem and he can answer to the powers that be for it.

So I would:
NEVER help in this situation, but for circumstances in which I would help a partner the time left in the game does matter to me. If a partner blows a call in the 1st half the team still has plenty of game time to recover. I'm very likely to just let him live with it. However, if there is a blown call in the last minute, the team that suffers has very little opportunity to make up for it, so I would be much more likely to offer my suggestion.

I do agree with him that the original calling official should be the one to reverse his own call. The Japanese concept of saving face comes into play here. I never want to embarrass a partner on the court.

I think it's quite possible that the T not seeing the ball off of A1's foot was because he was too close.

Of course it is odd for the C to be looking at A1's area, but if I did (mechanics error) and I am 100% sure that I information that will change the call (if accepted), then I will accept the criticism for my mechanics hiccup in favour of awarding the team entitled to the ball, according to the rule.

I am assuming that the C was rather close to the play, perhaps because of B pressing and the C stayed with the press rather that bailing out down the court.

With the CC getting into the mix (just listening) he had a chance to step up and voice, if necessary, any suggestions.

I agree with NV that late in the game, there is little chance to "recover" from a call that was ruled incorrectly. However, I also believe that each possession counts.

I saw this play occur, and if you were watching Mike Eades the official that was administering the inbounds pass got himself too close to the action....sometimes in these College Venues there is very little room on the baselines....such was the case last night. Mike Kitts the "C" saw what exactly happenend and took it upon himself to make the change. The call that Kitts made was the correct call and I commend him for stepping in and getting the call right. It wasnt as if Kitts came running in signaling the other direction...they got together talked about it and wanted to be 100% sure that this occured......Great officiating by a great official. Way to go Mike Kitts.

This frustrates me at times. I saw a Canadian NCAA-level game where an official had such little room to move, that his footing was tripped up and only his quick thinking prevented him from a spill. Get the cheerleaders, promotional banners, etc... the hockey sticks out of the way. No sponsorship money is worth injury to someone.

This tired old argument.

Some of us can actually monitor our area and be aware of what else is happening on the court.

If you master this art Nevada you may yet qualify to work girl's and woman's games (how's that Bob?)

Forgot to add that Tennessee was up by 3-points so the possession was very significant.

Also, the play that led to the throw-in was an easy PC foul in the paint. But the annoucers (Billy Packer being one of them) were confused as to the call. They claimed another official had signaled a block and the Lead had "over-ruled" him :rolleyes: . Did anyone see either the T or C with a whistle/preliminary on that play.

Yeah, that was bizarre. I was thinking "how is that NOT a PC foul on Werner [Florida]?" when those two were going on about how bad the blocking call was. The lead signalled PC the whole way.

The angles on the in-bounds play were a little crazy. With the press on, I think it's great that the C was helping out there. If I remember right, he was in position to be able to see the throw-in while still watching a matchup or two in his own primary. And with < 10 seconds to go, with a one-possession game, you do want to make sure you get EVERYTHING right.

I'm still not sure how the last OOB play went to Tennessee (not to mention a full second running off after the whistle sounded but what're ya gonna do?) as it looked obvious to me that it was rebounded OOB by Tenn. But I'll admit i'm a homer.

This old justification.

I always find it interesting how many officials watch ball and then call it "being aware of what else is happening on the court." There is a difference between being aware and officiating someone else's area.

If the C was helping on the press, there had to be other matchups than what was happening right in front of the T. I don't see how the C can see something right in front of the T by the feet if the C is doing his job and watching the other matchups.

Evidently some of you have big, red "S"s on your chests. :rolleyes:

Not C & T. Throw-in was administered by the L.

Might be that.

Might also be that some of you have tiny little red "JV"s on your chest.

just sayin'

Hmmmmmm.........

I wonder how long this thread would be by now if the crew <b>didn't</b> get the call right. You know, if the Gators hadda got the ball on the missed call, hit a 3 at the horn to tie it and then won it in OT.

Just wondering.......

I'm sure most of the posts would have been to congratulate the crew for not ball watching, staying in their area and missing this huge call that the rest of the planet saw.

Right? No?

Ok, Dan, since you're SO wonderful and can handle the entire court, why don't you just take your partner's game checks prior to the toss and send them home. That way you can have the whole game to yourself and all of the calls will be perfect.

That should make you happy.

Geeze... after reading this question from you I'm thinking maybe that little "JV" should be a big "JV" after all.

Yuk it up, Fuzzball. :p

My (serious) opinion?

There are absolutely no absolutes when it comes to officiating. Sometimes, the best thing for the game and the crew under certain circumstances might be to ballwatch, go out of our area, etc. This call might be a pretty good example of that. In end-of-close game situations, you had damn well better be ready to help each other out, whether it's on anticipated TO requests, last-second shots, screwed-up throw-ins, etc. You can set up so that you can look through your area to help out too.

In this particular situation, a veteran crew did what they had to do to avoid possibly causing one humongous cluster-f**k. Great job on their part imo.

If they hadda strictly adhered to the usual mechanics, we'd now be reading one heckuva lot of articles from the usual empty suits wondering how they coulda missed such an obvious call.

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

Jmo.

ok this made me chuckle :D

I dont see what the big deal is, if I am in the C in a press situation I try to look as wide at the court as i possibly can to see what is in front of (my primary) and what is in the background (the T's primary). If I happen to catch something that my partner missed then so be it, to me that is good officiating and just because Kitts saw the ball go OOB doesnt necessarily mean he was "ball watching" perhaps he was just being observant.

What would everyone be saying if the T got blocked/knocked out of the play, didn't get an angle on the OOB, he looked to the C for help and the C wasn't looking wide at the backcourt? I bet some on this board would say that the C was looking too narrow at his own primary and not helping his partner in an obvious press situation.

The most important thing is they got it RIGHT, everything else is secondary

Well hopefully the conversation would be about the referee who administered the throw-in being too close to the play.

The trouble with calling out of your area is that that usually those calls are wrong. Sounds like they got it right this time, but the percentage of missed calls when one calls out of one's area is very high.

Methinks you missed the point that I was trying to make. I wasn't advocating ball-watching or calling out of your area.

Circumstances sometimes dictate what needs to be done out there, and we as officials should be ready to adjust to those circumstances. And that's exactly what happened in this play imho.

Wait wait wait.....if it happens in the first half the team has time to recover???? Are you kidding?! What kind of mindset is that!?! If you have information that you take with you to the locker room and hang your partner out to dry, you're not who I want to work with, that's for sure. That sounds like it's a little lacking in integrity. It's not up to us to decide when it's important to get the play right.
Secondly, it's not about saving face or "should" let calling official change it---it's the rule.
Art. 3. No official shall have authority to set aside or question decisions
made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined
duties.
Art. 4. One official may assist another by providing additional information
related to a made decision.
Art. 5. The referee’s decision shall not take precedence over that of the
umpire(s) in calling a foul or violation.
You can't overrule a partner's foul or violation. You provide information and it's still up to the calling official to change it or not.

My vision doesn't magically stop working at the edges of my primary. IF I've got my area coverd and CAN see some things out of it, how is it a bad thing to offer secondary coverage on that stuff? Again....I've got my area covered properly.

For all we know, the only matchups the C had to cover could have all near the endline with no one above the FT line or at mid-court...naturally leading his vision towards the throwin spot.

Add to that the fact that as soon as the pass was tipped away, the C's eyes naturally went in that area cause that's where the next "thing" was going to happen - as a result, he was able to help out and keep his partner from getting a lot of grief from the evaluator and assignor later on. Someone help me with one - how is that a bad thing???:confused:

I'd have to see the play in question to know if the C just happened to see it or if he was not reffing his area.

We all have experiences that shape our beliefs. My experience has been that many officials use the "get it right" philosophy as an excuse to ball watch. My experience has also been that when partners make calls that are not in their primary, those calls are often wrong.

It's a bad thing because people like you (and we all know what THAT means!) use the "get it right" philosophy as an excuse to ball watch. Because people like you (yes, YOU!) cannot stop themselves from watching the ball.

And besides that most of your calls are wrong, and you have a thin skin and are unprofessional and I never wanna see your azz in my gym again!!

(sorry, just channeling a certain coach who lives up in Alaska...or maybe that was certain coaches...)

LOL...it was only one. And don't forget that the OTHER team gets ALL the calls, even when the foul count is 8-8. And don't even get me started on that "talking-to" that I gave that poor coach.