T or not a T ?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I guess I'm not sure that this case play applies. It was brought to their attention after the game had ended in that situation.

This seems to me to be a different situation, as 6 players are noticed during a dead ball. If you noticed the 6 players after a violation and before beginning the subsequent throw-in, would you not call the technical foul? I'm sure you would, but want a rationale for treating these situations differently.

Um, no I wouldn't. You have to notice 6 players participating during a live ball. They're not violating any rule until the ball becomes live.

If you look at part(a) of that case play, it says that you can penalize the team after the ball becomes dead if you had knowledge that 6 players were actually participating at the same time. In the original post, it was stated that the officials were not aware that the team had 6 players participating until after the ball became dead. Without having previous knowledge that 6 players were participating, you can't retroactively penalize that team. That's what part (b) of that case play is telling us.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, no I wouldn't. You have to notice 6 players participating during a live ball. They're not violating any rule until the ball becomes live.

If you look at part(a) of that case play, it says that you can penalize the team after the ball becomes dead if you had knowledge that 6 players were actually participating at the same time. In the original post, it was stated that the officials were not aware that the team had 6 players participating until after the ball became dead. Without having previous knowledge that 6 players were participating, you can't retroactively penalize that team. That's what part (b) of that case play is telling us.

I apologize for assuming. I just don't see that the case play applies. It involves the end of a game, not a dead ball during a game.

I'm more than open to being convinced, but I haven't been yet. I simply don't see not penalizing A when the rule does not explicitly state "during a live ball".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I simply don't see not penalizing A when the rule does not explicitly state "during a live ball".

Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.

Would you call a flagrant technical foul on a player who changed his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official if you discovered it during a dead ball? It has the exact same language.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Would you call a flagrant technical foul on a player who changed his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official if you discovered it during a dead ball? It has the exact same language.

No, I sureasheck wouldn't call a "T". Why? Because the player is no longer participating.

It uses the exact same language as 6 players participating does. You have to discover it while the player is participating, exactly like it says in both 10-1-6 and 10-3-1. If you didn't discover it while the player was participating, it's too late when the ball becomes dead and the player is no longer participating.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No, I sureasheck wouldn't call a "T". Why? Because the player is no longer participating.

It uses the exact same language as 6 players participating does. You have to discover it while the player is participating, exactly like it says in both 10-1-6 and 10-3-1. If you didn't discover it while the player was participating, it's too late when the ball becomes dead and the player is no longer participating.

JR, I really appreciate all your insight, but you've yet to answer the critical question - what is the definition of participating? Players don't become bench personnel at each dead ball. They are still players. That indicates to me they are "participating" unless someone can provide me a definition that states that participating only applies to live balls.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

JR, I really appreciate all your insight, but you've yet to answer the critical question - what is the definition of participating? Players don't become bench personnel at each dead ball. They are still players. That indicates to me they are "participating" unless someone can provide me a definition that states that participating only applies to live balls.

If you want to play linguistic games, be my guest. I'm done. I'm just repeating myself.

I told you what the rule is and I gave you the accompanying rules citations. If you don't want to believe that's how the concept of "penalized if discovered while being violated" is interpreted and applied.....versus "penalized when discovered", I suggest you ask your local or state rules interpreter for their interpretation. Let us know when you get your answer.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.

There is obviously no rule that it's illegal to have 6 players on the court at any time during a dead ball. There's also no rule stating it's permissible to have more than 5 on the court during a dead ball. Is it okay for every bench player to step onto the court during the interval between a violation and the subsequent throw-in?

Again, I'm waiting for the definition of "participating." It's what this whole discussion revolves around.