My season is <sniff> over
 

This was my 2nd season patched (IAABO State) originally I got 17 varsity games in the draw (mostly girls) but I ended up doing 29 varsity games due to my daily grind. It became well known to assignors & area directors midway through the season that if I wasn't working, then I would be at the high caliber game of the night watching & taking notes. And I always stayed for the varsity game if I did the JV game. Apparently those things help!

My 1st time in the post season & I was blessed with the opportunity to work 3 BOYS games (2A & 3A boys Districts, 4A boys 2nd round).

I didn't get "the sweet 16 email" yesterday so I'm done... unfortunately :(

It seems as though each time I feel that I accomplish something in this avocation, I find reasons to keep pushing to get better.

I guess working the girls games (not that there's anything wrong with that) without any complaints during the regular season earned me the boys in the post season. So that's a plus!
I guess working the U2 position during the regular season without any complaints earned me the U1 position in the post season. Another plus!

So now I need to work harder this summer to earn the boys games in the regular season, earn the right to be an R & go deeper into the playoffs next year.

Special thanks to the board for assisting me in getting better!! I learned so much about game management, rules knowledge & unusual situations. I wouldn't have progressed the way I have without Officiating.com

JRut & JR I know we've had our moments but thanks for keeping me in line. I learned so much from you two!

congrat!

I suppose it's possible to be more patronizing and misogynistic, but I can't quite imagine you posting it and having it stay on this board. You've managed to insult pretty much everyone involved in women's and girls' basketball.

But, I'm the one that'll take the heat for writing this, not you for what you wrote.

Still, I need to just point it out. Not that arguing will change anything. But women and girls who read this board need to know that not everyone is as obnoxious as you about this subject. A lot of us know that belittling women's and girls' sports isn't manly, just very small-minded.

Juulie, I can't see any statement he made about girls ball except for the implication that officials in his area are given the chance at girls before they're given a shot at boys and that proving yourself at girls ball can earn you a boys game. That is not any different here...and probably not any different where the same officials pool work both boys and girls. That is not to say there aren't some absolutely great officials who concentrate on girls ball....just a fact of what is the typical advancement pattern. I really can't see how it is even remotely insulting or belittling.

He may have even implied he preferred boys ball. Given the choice, and ignoring secondary factors outside the game itself, how may officials (men or women) would chose to work the same level boys varsity game or state tournament over the girls? How may women officials want to work boys games? Why do they want to if the girls games are just as good?

You can wish all you want that all/more officials would like girls games just as much as boys games but you really have no right to tell others that it is wrong to prefer one over the other or that they can't state their preferences.

Every time someone does not take a glowing stand for working girl's basketball, you take it personally. The reality is many people do not like girl's basketball. Women's basketball is a money loser on most college campuses. It is a money loser on TV, which is why they seem to only show the top teams on TV and not the many, middle of the road teams you see on ESPN or Fox. I am sure there are small places in this country where girl's and Women's basketball is seen as higher and on par with boy's and Men's basketball. But that is not the case in most cases and every time someone says they would rather work a Boy's game, you make it sound like they are the worst person in the world. This is why I am glad I can choose or I would focus more on college ball that would make it clear I would have to choose anyway. Believe me, if you change the topic to baseball and softball, I do not see many people belittling working softball. It is not just about gender.

Peace

One word........ Bono

This is the comment Juulie should have been upset about.
 

I would like to echo that sentiment. It really was not funny.

Peace

Rut...... can't follow this. Just asking.

"This is why I am glad I can choose or I would focus more on college ball that would make it clear I would have to choose anyway"

So... your womanhood is somehow insulted and your response is to attack his manhood... all in the name of sexual equality of course.

Put me down in the obnoxious column please... and the column for just plain tired of "us vs them" politics.

My objection to the OP isn't that he doesn't like working women's games. I know there are officials that don't like it, and while I certainly don't agree (I like women's games), they're entitled to their opinion.

My objection was to the belittling of women's sports: boys' games are somehow a "reward" for doing girls' games, and we need to "move up through" the girls -ugh!- to get to the good stuff, and only the good refs get boys' games. The fact of the matter is that there is good reffing, and it applies to girls games, and it applies to boys games. If his association really does set up their structure such that the sentences he said are just part of life in his area, then some coaches need to sue. It's just plain illegal.

And, Camron, the main reason I want to do boys' games is for variety. I would NOT want to do only boys. There are boys games that are faster, scores tend to go higher than girls, and that's fun. But there aren't many (if any) boys games that are better than Southridge/Central Catholic girls, unless a person just likes boys play better. For me, it's not a boy/girl thing, it's just variety. I like doing some of each.

ALso because if I don't do some boys' games every season, there are four tournaments for which I"m not eligible. I really would like to change that, but until it gets adjusted, I need to get some boys games every year, so that I can get to Pendleton someday.

Actually, it's not my womanhood that was insulted, and I didn't attack his manhood. And you were already in my obnoxioux column a long, long time ago.

This has nothing at all to do with us vs them. You personally (gender irrelevant) just don't get it. Period.

Puh-leeze.

Why don't you step away from the keyboard, have your Hillary moment and come back when you have something just a tad more weighty to offer the community than "you just don't get it".

We'll wait, don't worry.

What do you want to know?

Peace

"You just don't get it" wasn't something to "offer the community". It was personal. Next time I'll send a PM, so you don't get confused.:rolleyes: BTW, I have a much nicer voice than Hillary.

He did not make any comments about other women's sports in general. He made comments about girl's basketball. And whether you like it or not, basketball is the only sport that I can think of that runs both genders at the same time in most jurisdictions. Volleyball officials for example do not have to choose which gender to work on the same night as many officials might have to during the basketball season. And whether you also want to admit it or not, many coaches and officials are not required the same level of experience to coach or officiate those games at the high school level. I have seen many coaches regardless of gender barely have any experience and they are given the head coaching job. And definitely that is the case when it comes to officials. Even at the college level many officials do not have extensive experience under their belts and they have been given an opportunity to work even post season assignments at the lower level college ranks. I know my first varsity game was given to me was on the girl's side and I was told repeatedly (by even woman ADs) that they did not see me as ready to work boy's games early in my career even though they would give me girl's varsity games at the same school. And I am sure one of the main reasons for that is girl’s games did not bring the same scrutiny to that school as the boy’s team did. Even the very good girl’s teams are not as highly covered or attended as some very middle of the road teams. I am sure that is not unique to where I live.

That sounds like a structural issue in your area and might not even be an issue where other people live. In my area you work get post season only based on what level you work. If you never work girl's games, you are not elgible for working girl's post season and vise versa.

Peace

Illegal? Puh-lease.

I am thrilled I was selected to work a girls sectional and I probably work 50% girls games each season. I do it because as a former assignor, I think it's the right thing to do (here the assignors assign both). I am ranked slightly higher by the girls coaches, actually, because I work hard from tip to buzzer no matter the level or the gender of the participants.

But would I, given a choice, work a boys sectional over a girls sectional if asked? In a heartbeat.

Some of us would simply rather work on the boys side and many associations have recognized (rightly or wrongly) that a boys game is harder to work or should get the highest rated officials. Is this actionable? I really doubt it.

Thanks.

God, I hope so. I can't stand listening to Shrillary.

2nd year? I had to work 3 seasons to get my first playoff games in WI and I had 15 years experience before I got here!

I'm done on Thursday. Girls sectional (round of 16). We select the R here, but I'm more than happy to be Bono or the Edge (U2) for this game. One it's tapped, it doesn't matter who I am, really. I'm always an "R" on the court :)

I know I prefer working Boys HS b-ball over Girls HS b-ball anyday of the week. But if I were a college volleyball official I would rather work Women's games. :D

In my HS association there are "big dawgs" who do not work any girls games. Our latest top female official did drop out the board after last season partially b/c she wasn't getting any boys games. She's an NCAA-W official who had already work conference tournaments for 2 different D2's and this season will be working a D1 conference tournament.

And that in itself does not make you qualified to work a Boy's HS game in my opinion. NCAA Women's basketball is not even the same as a very good Boy's game where the game is above the rim. Maybe she should have been given a chance, but the way women's basketball wants the game called, that is not necessarily an acceptable experience. And I am speaking as someone that worked Women’s college ball at the D3 level at one time. There is a reason I got out of Women’s ball.

Peace

Jeff,

If she can successfully work D1 women's, she should at least be given a shot at the HS varsity level on the boys side. If she isn't getting games cause she's female (and it sounds like that could be the case here), it's as despicable as what happened to that female official in Kansas.

If she worked a D1 Men's game that does not automatically qualify you to work a HS varsity game. And I have seen some Boy’s HS varsity games that were much more physical than any college game on the Women’s side and I do not regularly see women jumping up above the rim.

The issue is not what levels you have worked, it is do you understand the customs of the level you are assigned. There are college officials on the Men's side that do not understand how to work a high school game and do not work that level at all.

Peace

I don't understand what you wrote. No opinion, just trying to follow the thread. I think you are saying that college ball would dictate Men's or Women's?

Way to set the bar high, there, Juulie. :)

If it was required for me to work both genders, I would stick to working college ball and leave HS ball alone. There is a reason I do not work any girl's basketball and I turn those games back when assignors try to give them to me. I am so glad I live in an area where that is not a choice.

Peace

OK - I'll settle this. From now on, everybody work only transsexual's games. :eek:

Sigh. I guess I'm glad that there are two separate organizations doing girls and boys organizations here so that this attitude doesn't happen here. I have the choice to do both if I wish. I don't because I don't wish to spend the extra time an extra association would mean.

And, yeah, you guys don't get it. It has to be blatant discrimination before you see it. You don't see the subtle stuff.

Rita

I can only think of one team name for this category. Both words rhyme with "sticks."

Anyhow, I'm not picky. And I don't buy Jeff's argument when it comes to the HS level. I've called plenty of goaltending and basket interference in my day and until I got to the boys varsity level, rarely had to make those calls. What's the difference between me and that female official? Either she will nail those calls or she won't. Either she'll work like the other officials or she'll wash out like anyone ELSE given the opportunity.

Anyone who moves to the college level and can't get a decent HS schedule, well, there's something wrong with the assignors then.

The more the merrier.
 

I prefer officials who don't like to work girls games to admit it rather than do the games anyway with a chip on their shoulder. The more of these that stay away from doing girls/womens basketball the better off everybody is. To me, a boys game is far easier to officiate than a girls game. It takes one heck of an official to do a consistently good job on girls games. I do both every year and almost without exception the boys games are easier. The only thing that might be tougher is there seems to be more scrutiny placed on boys games.

Otherwise, known as: Misogny--->bad, misandry--->good. Nothing changes.

And yeah, the women don't get it. It has to be blatant discrimination before they see it. They don't see the subtle stuff.

We went through this before.... waste of time then, waste of time now.

<i>"The sky is falling, the sky is falling..."</i> :rolleyes:

Thanks

U2-U1=U1 :D

Once again this goes to show that a thread title doesn't necessarily tell what the content is.

I'm somewhat in agreement with Rut on this one. Does it make me a bad person if I don't enjoy doing women's basketball? I don't think it does at all - it is just my preference.
Here we have to do double-headers and this being my second year here it got old fast. I was all set to stop doing high school ball next season when I find out I'm going to state. I kind of feel obligated to work high school next season. If I could do a JV boys game and then the boy's varsity I probably wouldn't feel this way, but it is a varsity double-header every time out. Add the fact that we probably make the same for this double-header as most of you make for one game; I don't do it only for the money, but I don't do it for free either.

Someone said it best, the women's game is harder to officiate than the men's games, but some of that doesn't really have anything to do with basketball plays. IMO it is harder because the girls force us to make more decisions. This is just my experience, but for some reason an attempt to play basketball defense is replaced by the notion that there is the ball I'm going to reach, grab and do whatever to get it. Like I said, that is just my experience.

I think I know who BNR is talking about and she does deserve to do boy's varsity - it seems like I know too many people in too many areas. I have no problem with a woman doing boy's varsity because sex doesn't really matter when it comes to skills. I don't really think anyone else said something different, but I'm just saying.

Best Post of the Thread!! IMO

This seems like a good thread to post this...

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Congratulations on making the postseason. Especially in only your second season. It took me 7 or 8 years to get a playoff game. (Of course, it took me 6 years to get any varsity games at all.)

Sorry to hear that your season is over. Sadly, I'm pretty sure that mine is too. Time to get those camp applications out!

I like your mindset of working hard in every game, start to finish, and watching as much local ball as you can. It always helps to see teams and plays before you have to actually officiate them.

I'm officiating in my second state now, and both of mine have always been V double-headers. In fact, back in Kansas, I sometimes had a triple-header of either B or G JV followed by GV then BV. Ugh.

At times I'm envious of those who have one game per night, but I also know I'm seeing twice the number of games I would in that situation and it's good for my development. I'm also seeing an equal number (approximately) of boys and girls games, and that is good from an exposure point of view. At this point I still enjoy working boys more, but if I didn't have work girls games I probably wouldn't, and I'd have missed some darn good games and the exposure that lets me know, for sure, that I want to focus on boys ball as I move up.

Where's rockyroad? He usually chimes in here with a very well worded opinion that girls' and womens' games AREN'T easier than boys' and mens'. They are two different games. Refs who do the highest levels of men's ball aren't automatically qualified to do girls' or womens' games, they are only the best at the men's game. A ref can be good at both, can be the best at both, but being great at one doesn't make him or her any particular skill level at the other.

Thus, it's not appropriate to think of working up through the levels of girls' games to the "highest pinnacle of achievement, boys' games". If you don't like girls' games, fine. Don't do them. But don't degrade them by acting like they're just "training ground".

JR, when the OP very clearly states (no implication or hinting here) that girls' games don't get the best refs, he's being misogynistic and patronizing. When I point that out, I'm not being misandryistic, just realistic. OP thinks girls' games are LESS, LOWER, SUB. That's degrading to girls and women, and doesn't speak well of OP as a man. Nothing I said puts "men" down.

I don't have a problem with lots and lots of men, but you seem to take any comments by me about some men personally. But then, as you say, nothing changes, does it?

I'll just say this, and then I'm done. The reason I post my disagreements with comments such as the OP made isn't to change anyone's mind. I gave up on that a long time ago. I do want lurkers, new readers and others who look at the forum irregularly to not think that opinions such as the OP are the only ones out there. There are refs out there who don't feel that girls games are automatically lower level, and some of us who have respect for the girls games do post on this board. It's not just one way of thinking.

Juulie, I disagree. I thought he was just being observant. I didn't sense any sort of value statement from him indicating he thought the system is appropriate. Is pointing out reality misogynistic?

I hate to break it to you, but that is true in many places. It is definitely true in my state and true in many organizations that I belong to. And many of the female officials that work basketball get opportunities on the girl's side that a male would never get on boy's side. And if that is misogynistic, then what happens if the reference is true? I have already given many examples of this.

Peace

By way of contrast, I wonder how much offense Juulie finds in this comment, which was actually said to me recently almost word for word by a recent college grad who's gender will remain unspecified:

I really want to work in men's fashion but for now I'm taking work in women's fashion for the experience and to get my name known. If I work hard and show my worth I'll eventually get a good job in my field.

No need. Leave that part to Rita:

Yeah, we're just so stupid. Can't see anything unless you hit us over the head with a 2-by-4. I find it amazing that she doesn't see the "subtle stuff" in that very comment, even though it's blatantly obvious.

BTW, why did you put the word "men" in quotation marks? :confused:

I'll second that opportunity bias for our association. It's simply a matter of numbers and I don't necessarily disagree. It looks "good" to have a female officiating varsity female games...the assignors recognize that and they get the fast track. I'm mostly fine with that. I get about an equal number of boys' and girls' game, a mix of JV and varsity. I enjoy the boys' game for sure, it's simply better flowing basketball: less out-of-bounds, tie-ups, violations, etc. However, I will not request boys' only (as some of the "big guns" in our assoc. have) since I enjoy the girls' game and know that they deserve the best effort from each official for each game (which I'm prepared to give). I'll just take what I'm assigned.

Nope, nothing changes. You're going to go into your "high dudgeon" mode, no matter what. If there's an insult to womanhood(real or otherwise) lurking in the bushes, hiding under the bed or skulking in the closet, you'll find it.

I already got the idea. Misogyny is everywhere. Misandry doesn't exist because it's just...well...realistic.

Btw, you think that I take comments by you about men personally? Naw, personally, I could care less. I think that it's kinda humorous....and predictable as hell. However don't you think that maybe....just maybe.....<b>you</b> take <b>ANY</b> comment about women personally to the absolute extreme, no matter how innocuous that comment may be?

Carry on the crusade, Don Quixote.:)

Yeah, it's not like I have any questions about where I fall in the gender classification.

isn't that already the case in Oregon?

From a male's point of view (and a member of the same association as Juulie), there is a perception among many of the men in the association that women tend to advance faster in the association and get to the varsity level a lot faster than men with the same amount of experience. Whether this is due to women mainly being assigned to women's games, or the fact that the assignor wants to keep more women in the association, I am not sure. Most of the men in the association work both men's and women's games. Some of the women are good enough to work men's games, but I believe that most of the women get a women's only schedule. Camron would know better than I would. I know of one woman official in our association who is as good or better than at least 90% of the men in the association, and she does get men's varsity games. There are probably more, but I have not worked with them.

Personally I think women's games are harder to ref sometimes than men's games because they are reminiscent of maybe a boy's freshman game where there is more chaos than good play. Especially on rebounds, women tend to hold the ball at their waist rather than do something useful with the ball, and that invites all kinds of grabbing and hacking. However, some well played women's games are easier to work than men's games because the action tends to happen slower. Just my own observation.

Well glad we finally settled THAT question!

:p

What about the female officials that get fast-tracked to the highest level of the women's game? I know 3 officials who worked the girls state tournament, each having less than 5 years of experience. I officiated regular-season games with 2 of them -- one was good, but nothing special on the court and the other was a terrible on-court official who hung me out to dry. Still, they got the fast-track to the state tourney while officials with 20+ years experience who happen to be white males AND better on-court officials wait for the call that will likely never come.

You OK with that?

If and when I ever work a state tourney, I'll know that I earned that call.

There is an official here that in her 5th year worked a Sectional Final on the girl's side and past so many male officials (regardless of color). To clarify, it takes many officials 10+ years to be even ready to work a Sectional Final on the Girl's side and this official (who is not bad) in her 5th overall year beat many officials that had much more playoff experience than she did. I personally do not have a problem with that because I know women are needed and wanted at that level. And for those that do not know, working a Sectional is the second-tier level in our post season out of 5 steps. When you work a Sectional, you are what we call "in the pipeline" to work a state final. You are considered to be one of the best officials in the state if you can achieve that level (right or wrong).

Peace

Somebody once said (okay, it was me) that an official is a spectator with the best view in the house who also happens to carry a whistle. In other words, we enjoy watching the games. Recently, on a local sports broadcast,(Louisiana) highlights were shown consecutively from the girls sweet 16 in Hammond, a women's game from ULM, and a women's game from Louisiana Tech. All three showed games being played before almost totally empty arenas. When the sweet 16 was in Monroe, you could arrive 10 minutes before game time, walk right in and get a good seat. I have attended the boys top 28 several times in Lafayette at the Cajundome, a larger facility than any of those mentioned above. Battling the crowd is a huge pain. The lower level is always filled to capacity, and the whole place has been known to sell out. I say that calling a boys game may be more physically demanding than a girls game, (harder to keep up) but overall is easier to call than a girls game because the boys can play through things, so the game needs fewer whistles.

Having said all this, if I enjoy watching a game more because the players run faster and jump higher, does that make me a bad person?

Six seasons for a sectional here, personally. I'm very happy to be assigned to the game, but I wonder about the process sometimes.

Certainly not in the pipeline here, I don't think, just cause you've made a sectional. And sectionals here is the 4th round - it takes 5 wins in most levels to make the state tourney.

Hey Juulie, Rita & any other women who frequent the board. I feel so bad because my intent was not to belittle Womens ball! I do however prefer Mens, I love working above the rim ball. I do have that right dont I?

Actually I was just attempting to show the progress I made this season (due to your helping me grow). Here in CO, the new officials start out with girls varsity ball & get the boys once they prove they can handle girls... I didn't make the rule, it's just the way it is HERE.
Hell, the few women officials here prefer to work boys games as well. I was just simply pointing out that I worked mostly girls during the regular season & must've did something right in the assignors eyes to get 3 boys post-season games my first time out the gate.

FTR, I give the same effort for any level/gender game I work. That's probably the main reason I got an opportunity so quickly.

The main thing was to thank the board for helping me grow & develop into a half-way decent official... yourself included Juulie! I learned from you as well, I read your articles & implemented some of the things you speak about into my game. Nothing but love for you & Womens Basketball!!

So thanks once again for teaching me things that can't be learned from a rulebook!

There he is!! He's the one who started this!!! Let's get him...!!

http://movietonic.com/hollywood/wp-c..._angry_mob.png

I guess some people haven't figured out that you can hate women's basketball without hating women. They are not one and the same. :rolleyes:

Perhaps it's all just too subtle, and I don't get it, but here are the basic facts of basketball officiating life as I have learned them.

Fact: New officials are not to be trusted. Until proven otherwise it's best to assume they know too little, are too slow, don't have the skills, can't handle the pressure, and will fail if simply thrown into any group/association's biggest games.

Fact: In order to prove one's ability to anybody that assigns games, you must be able and prepared to demonstrate proficiency at working "lower level" games.

Fact: Slower, less intense, more sparsely attended games are lower level games. And any competent assigner at any level will use those games to develop and prove newer officials.

Fact: Freshman games are slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than junior varsity games which are, in turn, slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than varsity games. Therefore freshman games are lower level than junior varsity games, which are, in turn, lower level than varsity games.

Fact: At every level, freshman, sophmore, junior varisity, and varsity, the girls' games are slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than the boys'.

Fact: Most officials, certainly the officials that frequent this board, want to work faster, more intense, and more well-attended games. We don't officiate for the money. We officiate for the personal challenge of getting our game on, taking the floor, nailing the calls, managing the personalities, solving the crises, performing under pressure, and just generally excelling at every aspect of what we do. And then we want to go out the next night and tackle an even bigger challenge.

Fact: That means officials must "move up" from where they are currently to the games they want to be working.

Now I don't hear any moral outrage being unloaded on officials who say they're working hard to "move up" from junior varsity to varsity. So why should any of us feel ill disposed toward an official who wants to move up from working girls' games to boys' games?

Most women officials I know are frequently overheard complaining about how they're not getting more boys varsity games. Why? Because they want to move up as much as the men do. Is anyone here willing to unload their moral outrage on these officials too? Or is it okay to think in those terms if your a woman? :confused:

You're welcome. :)

I havnt read the whole thread, but I think this is the "fackt"" that not evryone things isa "fackt".

Wait. Stop the presses. Has Drudge gotten this story yet?? I'm sure there wil be a presidential press conference in the morning to address this new development!!

btw good post.

That's easy for you to say.....

"Just because it's always been done that way....." is the subtle discrimination of which I speak. No one can say it isn't there.

If one doesn't like girls' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do boys basketball.

If one doesn't like boys' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do girls basketball.

But I do think it's unhealthy thinking in an organization to say that one has to "move up" from doing girls' basketball.

It isn't a matter of individual preference. It's the wholesale attitude of the organization that we have a problem with.

Rita

Looks to me like your jokes are more important than your serious things? You make fun of my typing but dont address the issue. Is there universale agrement that boys games are better tahn girls games? That they are harder to ref? im just wondring if thats reilly a fact?

When a strong majority in any field have a similar order of preferences, that establishes a defacto order of moving up. The more people that desire a given assignment relateive to the available opportunities (of anything, not just basketball) the higher the level. It's all based on preferences, not any absolute or intrinsic value. A level that anyone can get is at the bottom. A level that only a select few achive is at the top. Is it easier to get a girls varsity game than a boys varsity game? Is it easier to get a freshman game than a varsity game? You tell me.

I don't think there is anything anyone can say to win this argument. When someone isn't as experienced, they do girl's varsity before boy's varsity. When someone can't move like they used to, they do girl's varsity after doing boy's varsity (previously). You can call it what you want and argue all day, I don't think any official on this board can really change the way things are.

All this is true unless you live in a ________ state where you have to do double ___________ headers. In that case you basically do the same amount. Being in the military and moving around frequently is the worst thing that has happened to me as an official. Putting that into perspective, I guess I'm pretty blessed overall. :D

I'd challenge you to find me a school (at any level) where the gym is noisier during a girls game than during a boys game. (Intensity level and attendance). You might be able to find a handful of exceptions across the country (most would be colleges like the University of Tennessee.)

I'd challenge you to find me a single school where the girls team is faster and stronger than the boys team. I'd challenge you to find a school where the girls team is as fast or as strong as the boys team.

I'd challenge you to find me more than a half-dozen schools nationwide where the coach of the girls team is under more pressure than the coach of the boys team.

BITS' facts are hard to dispute. Does that make the boys game intrisically better? No. Are they more desirable for top tier officials? Definitely. JRut isn't the only official who would rather give up officiating than work a steady diet of girls' ball.

That said, I imagine a lot of female officials want to do boys varsity simply because of the status it implies in a given association. In the association I was in the past two years, the women seemed to do an equal number of boys and girls games. Then again, boys games weren't the end-all in that association (also in Colorado, but a different part of the state from Ch1town). In that group, the big deal is staying "in town" as opposed to driving to a small school game out of town. From what I saw, all the top officials worked both boys and girls games, relatively equally.

Similar to Ch1town's experience, but slightly deviated, the way to get on the assignor's good side was to be willing to drive to games out of town (as far away as two hours).

So I am supposed to like something because you like it. When I started officiating, I was not even thinking of working any girl's basketball at all. I wanted to be in the NBA, which later I decided would not be for me. There was no WNBA when I started and you could hardly find a D1 Women's game on TV. My focus was only Boy's or Men's basketball until I was not given a chance to work those games. You are not going to change my feelings because you have a problem with what I prefer doing. It is not going to happen. If you want that to change, get more women that never played any sports to officiate games. Then you will not have to worry about who officiates the girls game or not. I would never hinder any female from officiating anything they are qualified to do. But you cannot tell me that every male that grew up playing is thinking women's basketball is the way to go.

Peace

Why do you think this attitude is "unhealthy"? Unhealthy for whom? In what ways? And how is it really any different from attitudes of moving up from wreck ball or middle school ball?

What exactly is it about the "wholesale attitude of the organization" that bothers you so much?

And if you're willing to concede an individual's right to prefer one game over the other, why do you struggle with the right of many likeminded individuals within a group to prefer one game over the other?

And I'd like to know what you think about women officials who view working boys games as "moving up" from girls games? Does this bother you? Do you feel they are breaking ranks with the sisterhood? Do you defend this as their right to their own opinion? And what if a whole bunch of these women formed their own officials association, and as a group preferred working boys games? Would that just stick in your craw?

And, in reality, what is different about talking about "moving up" from girls games as opposed to moving up from freshman games, moving up from small school games, moving up from high school games? Because in reality, it has nothing to do with the girls, it has to do with the basketball. It's often pretty boring.

And what's this baloney with "just because it's always been done that way..."? Please quote me any post in this discussion where anybody has used that argument. It doesn't even make sense in this context. It sounds to me like you're draging in old bones from other arguments and trying to prove this is just another facet of the ongoing conspiracy to keep women down. Talk about unhealthy.

If you're really just wondering, then go work 20 girls games and 20 boys games. Report back what you discover. :rolleyes:

My Two Cents ...
 

High school official for 27 years. Middle school girls coach for over 25 years. Parent of son who played recreation ball. Parent of a daughter who played high school varsity, helped her AAU team win an international gold medal in Spain, and is presently playing ball for her medical school in London, UK.

Maybe we're a little different here in Connecticut because of the small size of the state, with the state equally supporting both the University of Connecticut mens, and womens, basketball teams, but here's my two cents.

At the highest scholastic level, boys ball is played above the rim. Girls ball is played below the rim.

After 27 years, I believe that I can make this observation. With few exceptions, boys varsity games are viewed by a larger fan base, consisting of both student fans, and families of the players. Girls varsity games are, with few exceptions, viewed by mostly families of the players, with a smaller percentage of student fans. Most boys teams are supported by school cheerleaders. Most girls teams are not supported by cheerleaders.

I find both boys games, and girls games, equally challanging, with exception of above the rim action. After doing a girls game, or a couple of girls games, followed by a boys game, I have to remind myself, as the trail, to watch above the rim for basket interference, and goaltending.

I don't care if I get a girls varsity assignment, or a boys varsity assignment. On the other hand, I don't care if I get a small school varsity assignment, or a large school varsity assignment, boys, or girls. This past season, I didn't mind filling in for a junior varsity official who didn't show up, for a girls game. I just love officiating interscholastic basketball. Period.

The wholesale attitude you speak of is a direct result of individual preferences. It's basic economics, the more desirable an assignment is, the more difficult it is to get, and therefore it becomes a de facto sign of "moving up" to get those assignments.

There was no top-down decision to make the boys games higher level assignments than the girls games (except in those few areas that assign three officials for boys games and two for girls games.)

Snags............ there are some pretty intense, SRO, decibel breaking, girl's tournament games here in Chicagoland. It's routine during the season also for big games. Things being equal, the boys game will be on a larger scale but there are a good number of programs in Illinois where girl's basketball is just fine.

I was at a boys sectional the other night and the gym was not even half filled, conversely a few weeks ago a sectional girls game was sold out.

I do however understand your point.

Well said.

This is my point. Sure, if you compared the University of Tennessee women's team to the Arkansas Pine Bluff men's team, the Lady Vols probably would outdraw and out decibel the Pine Bluff fellas. My point, however, is that at the same level, the boys will almost always outdraw the girls. (Actually, it was BITS' point, I just reiterated it.)
My question. Were these sectionals of the same level of high schools, and did they involve the same schools?

Not that there couldn't be some exceptions to BITS' point about attendance and intensity.

After 5 pages I think I may be the only person on here that hasn't given their opinion. First of all, I think the original post would have been somewhat interesting as most of us are finished or finishing up for the season. To bad it took the turn it did.


I tried to voice an opinion on this thread but it all came out as ramblings. I personally think it is a ridiculous topic. What type and level of basketball you enjoy working and are comfortable working is your own opinion. The perception of what type of ball is more difficult is just that, a perception. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.

I think what you just references is direct result of the new 4 class system and who is playing whom, then having much to do with girl's vs. boy's attendance. I attended the Galesburg Sectional last night and the place was packed. The teams playing were Washington vs. Peoria Central and both schools are less than 50 miles away from Galesburg. Tonight at that same sectional, Kankakee will play Geneseo. Geneseo is in the same conference with Galesburg, so they should bring a crowd and Kankakee is 3 hours away. I doubt seriously the crowd size tonight will match the size of the crowd of last night because of the travel times of one team. And if we talk about some Super-Sectional games that were held last night at the 1A and 2A levels, the attendance is down on the boy's side compared to years past with the 2 class system. I do not see that has an issue based on the gender, but an issue of where teams are playing and how far the fans might have to travel. They have to fix this travel issue if this 4 class system is going to work.

Peace

You're correct, it was a 3A sectional.

Galesburg is a hotbed for basketball ........boys and girls. Great fans. I've heard that they have two radio stations broadcast girls games.

The travel thing is a killer, which is a shame. We have a super here that is in DeKalb, with teams I believe that will be over 90 miles away. Just too far to the casual fan. I don't know the answer. Fun to just go to a game and watch.

That is true, but that was not a Galesburg crowd. It was clearly fans from both Peoria and Washington (which they are right next to each other BTW). Not to say there were not a good amount of people just watching from Galesburg, but the crowd size was clearly supporting one of the teams in colors they were wearing and chants.

Ninety miles is not that big of an issue if you ask me. When you have teams going 4 hours plus one way to attend their Super-Sectional game that is really not a great thing for the teams. I hope they change the sites or stop having a blind draw for who plays at which Super. Or better yet go back to the 2 class system. I do not see many people happy with this system on many levels.

Peace

Any of the Illinois guys know how my Wolverines are doing this year? Simeon that is.

At Chicago (Englewood)*
SECTIONAL SEMIFINAL
Chicago (Simeon) 70 F
Chicago (Hope) 37
Simeon - Stan Simpson (19 points) Simeon - Josh Anderson (14 points) Simeon - Kenyon Smith (10 points) Hope - T.J. Welch (9 points)

Looks to me like they are doing just fine. :)

Peace

Thanks JRut, I heard they were having a decent regular season... looks as though they're still pushing.

They have been ranked near the top of all the teams in the State of Illinois all season in their class and in the Chicago area (which considers multiple classes).

It looks like they are on their way to another possible championship. We will just have to see. I can tell you after losing Derrick Rose and Flowers I really thought they would not be as good. Clearly I was wrong.

Peace

Then I would want to work with you over someone who is only working to fill their schedule. :)

great program........

Is this a common thing? Taking girls games that you don't really want just "to fill your schedule"?

I have an assignor who tells me what games I have. I don't get to fill my schedule (at least, not with high school games).

OK, he's right here. Was out of town and frankly hadn't read this thread until this morning...all I can say is - What a freaking stupid argument to be having...anyone who does not recognize that girl's games are different than boy's and women's games are different than men's is a moron. Anyone who says that one is easier to officiate than the other is also a moron. They are two entirely different beasts...men's/boy's are usually more demanding physically, while girl's/women's usually require a whole lot more judgement/thinking before deciding whetehr or not to call the foul...

As far as the whole idea of working your way up through the girl's ranks to be "good enough" to do boy's games - I guess people can get all righteous and offended by that if they want to. Or, they could look at it the way I do - if you are good enough to do a solid job reffing a high level girl's/women's game, then you have shown that you are good enough to ref any game.

My schedule if full enough with the Boy's games I work and working mainly 3 times a week. If I am going to "fill my schedule" I would take a JV or freshmen boy's game if I really needed to work. I love the fact I have the option to work what I want to and when I want to and where I want to.

Peace

OK...

Really?...;)

Absolutely. Even in the Tri-City area.

/howard cosell on/
It's Rocky vs Rookie... a potentially savage affair that will leave but 1 man standing! A bout that wil keep you riveted to your seat and focused on your television! A bout to be remembered for all eternity, a bout who's story shall be passed from father to son down through the ages thrilling young and old alike...
/howard cosell off/

But simply not true in the Portland area. And I imagine most others.

Ding, Ding!!!

Bullsh!t. Even in the Portland area...the people who an go out and do an excellent job officiating the OC vs. Jesuit or Westview girl's can handle any game in your area. Period.

You left out the "r". :p

beastrs?

Geeze Mark, whatinthehell kinda word is that?

Almost sounds... wait for it.. French! :eek:

/howard cosell on/
Unbelievably Rocky has resorted to profanity...but wait! That is not Rookie! That is Smitty!!! Smitty has jumped into the ring and is being pummeled by Rocky! Sportsfans this reporter must confess he has never... NEVER!... seen the likes of this in all his years of following professional sports. One might even harken back to the days of bareknuckled pugilism - AND I DO - and never encounter this level of brutality... this lever of raw athleticism tainted...yes I say tainted! Tainted by pure bloodlust. Ladies and gentlemen I am at a loss for words, we'll be back after this word from our sponsor.
/howard cosell off/

Ding, Ding!

Congrats to the OP on the post-season assignments.

This was my first year working a full varsity schedule. Here in Vermont, there are 4 divisions. D1 for the largest schools and D4 for the smallest. I received a variety of assignments--boys and girls--this past season. I worked all levels except for D1 boys. I had one D1/D3 boys game and a couple of D2 boys games. Am I ready to do D1 boys games next season? That is for the assignors to decide. But clearly, those are the most demanding games that are assigned.

Again, congrats to OP.

I have a question, would most people on this board, who prefer boys, officiate a girls state championship if given the opportunity? What about if it was three championships in the same year?

I wouldn't. I would not feel that I was doing what I wanted to do and worked for. In my state it is not about working a state final, it is about working the state final I have been working for. And in reality getting a state final is a secondary goal. I want other achievements in officiating and if I am around long enough to achieve a state final, so be it. But it will not be in girl's basketball.

Peace