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-   -   Mass High School Tourney problems (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/42335-mass-high-school-tourney-problems.html)

tjones1 Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:33pm
Doubtful. There are still a lot of schools that don't want to pay for 3 officials (check local listings). Members of the NFHS would have fit if they got rid of 2-man.

Jurassic Referee Sat Mar 01, 2008 01:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
However, they have reversed themselves in one key situation. They went from rebounders moving into the lane on the hit, to rebounders moving into the lane on the release, back to shooters moving into the lane on the hit, on a free throw. I actually liked the release better.
Next year, you're gonna see the bottom spots left open like the NCAA Mens.

tjones1 Sat Mar 01, 2008 01:53pm
Really? Seems like a sudden change to me. Everything they ever said in their studies says they believe no advantage is gained by doing so.

Do you know their new reasoning JR?

Back In The Saddle Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Really? Seems like a sudden change to me. Everything they ever said in their studies says they believe no advantage is gained by doing so.

Do you know their new reasoning JR?
It was on their rules questionaire they put out a while ago. But my guess is mostly that it's a fasion thing. And there will be a large number of respondants who will say they want to move the rebounders up just because the NCAA does it. It's the same mindless mentality that leads to wreck league players who will to fight you to the death to stand on the block. Like it matters. :rolleyes:

And some morons will be pontificating about how "if we're going to prepare athletes to compete at the next level then they need to playing by the same rules because it's too hard to make the adjustment when they get there." As if :rolleyes:

And it'll happen.

But you just watch. The rules about marking the lane lines will not change. Ever. Because the rules committee at least knows that soon enough somebody will want to change it all up again.

ronny mulkey Mon Mar 03, 2008 07:44am
We were an experimental state this year for leaving the bottom block open. I didn't notice less or more contact but it sure appeared to give the non shooting team better rebounding position.

Raymond Mon Mar 03, 2008 08:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
...
In the OP maybe one of the officials should have seen the clock but I see nothing by rule these guys did wrong. Coach should learn 1) to trust their players 2) and learn the rules. In her interview stated
even though it’s a correctable error. Oh really under what provision is this correctable?
The article claims the shooter hit the shot at 3.8... I wonder where they got that from the synchronized clock with the video feed?

Dont blame the officials for a stupid coaching mistake. She stated with .3 seconds she never would have called time out Oh really didnt I just see a Big Sky game that tried something along the same line?

Do you think she was actually looking at the clock? She also stated there must have been at least 2 seconds (nice even number)? Nice guess on reaction time... What we dont know as Paul Harvey called it the " rest of the story"...

Did the whistle blow correctly and the time so enthralled in a tight game forgot to shut the clock off? We'll never know..

No one watched the clock (not great game management but understandable given a one point game going to the buzzer. Who is not to say thy did not look up at that point in time and see the clock stopped?
...
Why are you banging on the coach? She didn't bang on the officials. Her statement that is was a correctable error, while the wrong verbiage, is correct in that if an official had seen ?.? on the clock the time could have been corrected. And nowhere in the article did she claim the officials did anything wrong procedurially or rules-wise. Only that she feels her time-out came with more time on the clock than the officials ruled.

JRutledge Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Why are you banging on the coach? She didn't bang on the officials. Her statement that is was a correctable error, while the wrong verbiage, is correct in that if an official had seen ?.? on the clock the time could have been corrected. And nowhere in the article did she claim the officials did anything wrong procedurially or rules-wise. Only that she feels her time-out came with more time on the clock than the officials ruled.
And that is a credible source? Of course the coach thinks their time out came earlier, but it did not according to the officials. She should have prepared her players to call timeout because that is likely where their focus was.

Coaches have just been too dumb to realize that this rule is not required, it is an option. Coaches are the only ones to complain when the rule does not benefit them.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
The coach didn't complain. She made an observation. She never onced criticized the rulings made by the officials. If fact she criticized herself for calling the time-out and not trusting her player.
My comments are not based on whether or not she criticized the officials. I personally do not care if she did or did not. But she is whining about the situation and if the rule was not the way it was, then she would have never been in that situation. And then just like other common sense things coach overlook, she should trust her players to call timeout instead of taking it upon herself to "save her team." There is nothing in the rule requiring a coach to call a timeout. It is only an option for them to do so.

An observation I am going to make. How do you expect officials to serve the game better if you only allow them to use a system during the post season and not during the regular season as well?

Peace

Raymond Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
And that is a credible source? Of course the coach thinks their time out came earlier, but it did not according to the officials. She should have prepared her players to call timeout because that is likely where their focus was.

Coaches have just been too dumb to realize that this rule is not required, it is an option. Coaches are the only ones to complain when the rule does not benefit them.

Peace
What source? It's the coach stating her opinion, acknowleging the officials saw it differently, and then accepting the consequences. They are more quotes from this coach concerning her players' future endeavors then there are concerning the play itself.

Why is the coach dumb just b/c her opinion of a play is different?

JRutledge Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
What source? It's the coach stating her opinion, acknowleging the officials saw it differently, and then accepting the consequences. They are more quotes from this coach concerning her players' future endeavors then there are concerning the play itself.
Did they ask the official what they saw? Do we have a quote as to why things turned out the way they did? Of course we do not. So taking only the coach's word on this is not the best thing to do if you want a real explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Why is the coach dumb just b/c her opinion of a play is different?
Requesting a timeout for the coaches is not the only request that can be made. Players can make the same request. Officials are focused on players, not coaches. And when you have to take the focus of the officials off the players, you tend to cause problems like this where the clock might not be observed properly or a timeout is not granted in the right amount of time. That is why she is dumb along with every other coach that has stopped using their basic common sense because the rules give them an option.

Peace

BayStateRef Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:50am
Video of the play
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xsTm2nESj4

The quality is not perfect, and if you can look past the bias and fact errors, you can see this:

Black has the ball with 13.9 seconds to go, up by one point.
Time out is called and black has throw-in on end line.
White steals the ball.
Much scrambling.
Whistle (for time out) & 3-point shot attempt at roughly the same time.
There are about 3.5 seconds on the clock when the shot is attempted.
Clock runs down to 0.3 seconds while shot is in the air.

Three-person crew. Trail is right next to home bench and grants the time out. Scoreboard is on wall to the left of the basket, on C's side.

So....if this is your game:

Did the crew handle it properly?

ma_ref Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
That is why she is dumb along with every other coach that has stopped using their basic common sense because the rules give them an option.
So she's dumb for following the rules? :confused:

BayStateRef Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
An observation I am going to make. How do you expect officials to serve the game better if you only allow them to use a system during the post season and not during the regular season as well?
Indeed. There are definitely problems with veteran high school officials, who only work a 2-person system all year, having to work a 3-person system for the state tournament.

Most tournament assignors try to get at least one college official on each crew, so one person has solid 3-person experience. But that does not always happen. I know of games where the most-seasoned official had exactly one game working a 3-person system (the one he worked two days before with a college guy.) There are special clinics offered by most officials' boards in February on 3-person mechanics, but a single clinic and working actual games are hardly equal.

The issue is money. Schools are not willing to pay an additional fee 20 times per year (10 boys and 10 girls) to have 3-person crews. This year, schools that were going to the tournament were encouraged to use 3-person crews in February as a "warm-up." I have not heard of any school that actually did.

JRutledge Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma_ref
So she's dumb for following the rules? :confused:
How did that work out for her? ;)

Peace

ma_ref Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
How did that work out for her? ;)
Look, I don't know the coach personally, and due to geographical differences I'll probably never officiate 1 of her games. Yes she made a dumb choice (in hindsight), but to call her dumb is a personal insult. That's my only point.


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