Figure this one out
 

2 minutes to go in sectional tourney high school game. Coach asks how many time outs he has left the refs checks with the official scorer and he tells them they have 2 time outs left, so with a minute left coach takes another time out so he should have 1 left. They are down 2 and get he ball back with 15 seconds left and call a time out, while they are in the huddle setting up a play to tie or win the game the official scorer call the refs over and says he made a mistake they DIDN'T have any time outs left. What do you do? Here is what they did they called a TECHNICAL and the other team made both free throws and the game is basically lost. This isn't the refs fault but someone at the scorers table has to be held accountable. How do you handle this? This really happened. I know the coaches have to keep track of the timeouts also so they have to share in the blame. The refs were put in a bad situation.

You just told us what the officials did!!! That's what you do.

What's to figure out??

Scorer screwed up....coach was properly assessed a technical foul for requesting an excessive time out. Sounds like it was handled correctly.

You're right...it's a bad situation. I'm sorry your team lost the game.

I was just a fan
 

I had no rooting interest in either team.

I will take a shot
 

We had this discussion at our association meeting. It is not our responsibility to tell coaches what they have left. If I check the book, it is for my crews knowledge not coaches. If a coach asks, I will tell them to have their assistant check at table.

In the situation you state - no choice but a technical against them. If the book is wrong - its wrong - nothing more. Tell the coach you have to go by what home scorer has.

I'm assuming he's asking during a deadball. Regardless, if he asks me, I'm going to answer him with "I DON'T KNOW COACH". That's what he has a scorer, as well as assistant coaches to keep up with that stuff. If he asks you how many fouls does his player have, are you going to check the book for that as well, and tell him?

The only time we are giving the timeouts left is when they are out.

We don't keep track and we are not messengers, so until they use their last one, it's the teams responsibility.

They really got it right. :D

I had nearly this same situation earlier this year in a BIG game. Coach went ballistic, problem was, scorer was correct the whole time, HIS asst screwed up told him he had 1 left. No choice but to assess the technical. When it comes down to it, coach has to maintain them "in-house" so to speak. Theres nothing to sort out, if scored told him he had 2, he needed to verify with his bookkeeper, don't just assume. Good lesson for him.

Actually the scorer did screw up.

They are required through an official to inform a team when they lose their final TO.

And I'm wondering how the scorer suddenly discovered this in the middle of the time out. Me thinks maybe all the facts for this story aren't available.

TonyT, how did you ascertain the facts to this story?

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by CLH
I had nearly this same situation earlier this year in a BIG game. Coach went ballistic, problem was, scorer was correct the whole time, HIS asst screwed up told him he had 1 left. No choice but to assess the technical. When it comes down to it, coach has to maintain them "in-house" so to speak. Theres nothing to sort out, if scored told him he had 2, he needed to verify with his bookkeeper, don't just assume. Good lesson for him.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Sounds to me that the scorer did notify someone that the coach used his last time-out. Otherwise, why would he be mad? ;)

The assistant is allowed to go to the table ?

The idea...and the rule...is to tell them before they call an extra one, not after.

So when team A uses their 5th TO, the scorer should be telling the reporting official that they are out and that official should then carry that info to the huddle of team A.

Sure a team should no their TO situation but that does not excuse the scorer or officials from doing what is required of them in their duties.

How do you lose a time out? Does it drop out of the book or something? :confused:

HAHA - couldn't help it. Ran out of meds this morning.

The official book is at the table. Coach was acting on info. given to him from the "official book". I know the rule but it seems a rather harsh punishment for a mistake that occurred because table screwed up. How do you know the scorer wasn't cheating? Isn't there a way to fix this? I don't understand the reluctance on telling both teams how many time outs they have in a tight game. I want to prevent this from happening.

2-11-6...tells us exactly what is supposed to be done.

Preventive officiating
 

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.

Are you suggesting we NEVER tell a coach how many time out he has?

I agree the OP was handled correctly given the facts presented, but it does make one wonder.

wyo96

gordon30307,
I don't see it as a reluctance. I see it as, "If I didn't know how many you have left, it ain't my problem." and "I only know if you are out of 'em."
Personally, I like to know. ;)

No.

Who Is Allowed ???
 

Also, is the head coach, or any coach, allowed to come to the table to check timeouts, personal fouls, team fouls, etc.? I thought that they were only allowed to come to the table for correctable errors, scoring mistakes, timing mistakes, and alternating possession arrow mistakes?

Help??

If they want to send an assistant or manager to the table during a timeout, I'm okay with that. Aside from that, they will have at least one person at the table with a book that they know and trust. Usually, they can do this whole process silently by reading lips.

to borrow from our friend Will

There is something wrong in the state of....

I dont think this wa Denmark though.. State of Confusion, State of Intoxication, ???

How can a scorer tell somone there is two left and have it be actually 0? I assume the scoreboard did not have the TOL lights? but still... I would query hard and long here to find the potential mistake...

So we have a good idea of what's going on in the game I will ask... Most of the time I have a good idea of how many timeouts have been used, so I reverify...

Just something fishy...

text of rule
 

Art. 6... Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

10.5.1 SITUATION C: The coach of Team A leaves the bench area and goes to the table to seek information other than a correctable error: (a) during a time-out; or (b) during the intermission between the first and second quarters. RULING: A technical foul is charged directly to the coach in both (a) and (b). If this information is required, it must be secured by a manager or statistician, etc., when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead. A coach is not permitted at the table for this purpose. To allow exceptions would open the door for exploitation and would result in situations which could not be enforced consistently.

TonyT,
I have two questions for you-
A.Can you tell me whether the scorekeeper was an adult or student manager?
B.Did the scorekeeper attempt at any point to inform the floor officials of timeouts remaining?

I would also propose that the NF add a mechanic which requires official scorers to count down referees on # remaining after each timeout is called. We are required to signal time-outs called in volleyball and this situation has only happened to me once in three years of VB and never in five years of Basketball.

wyo.. I'm not suggesting that at all, as a matter of fact I do the same. I'm saying if the coach asks me how many time outs he has, I would reply as i said I would and that is "Coach, I don't know".

Thanks for all of the replies
 

The official scorer was a adult (this was a sectional tourney game) I don't know how he messed this up and gave the ref the wrong info. I kept the scorebook for years and towards the end of a close game during a time out I have had refs come over to the table and ask how many time outs each team has left and then go tell each coach (I think this is good preventative officiating) You also communicate with the other book to make sure you are on the same page (this apparently wasn't done) I have a feeling this wasn't done until the last time out was called and then they discovered the error. There was so much that could of been done to prevent this from happening From coaches and score keepers) It is to bad the refs were put in this position, of course the crowd was all over them and this wasn't their fault, they were given the wrong information. Also when a team is out of time outs you make sure the refs know so they can tell the coaches and then if they call time out it is their fault. I really enjoy reading this board it is amazing all of the things that can happen during a game and I like reading all of the comments everyone has and alot of times it has happened in one of their games.

For the record, this is NOT the proper procedure.

I wonder if refs who do the above also tell a coach how many fouls his best player has. :rolleyes:

Not our responsibility...
 

to tell the coach how many time outs he/she has left till that amount reaches ZERO. This situation is the exact reason why it isn't our responsibility. I don't care how many they have left till it is zero.

Look at Casebook 5.8.3e

The official erroneously grants Team B a time-out in a situation when Team B cannot have one. What happens now? RULE: Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was granted. The time-out once granted cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both team.

So, it doesn't say that they don't get the penalty of a T for the extra. Don't read into the case plays. They are what is there, no more no less. They bought the privlidge of the TO at the cost of the T.

And yet, it is not an improper procedure either. :)

And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.

I am guilty of preventive officiating here also. During dead balls late in close games I tell coaches how many tiome-outs they have remaining.

I guess the situation was handles correctly and I would put 100% of the blame on the scorekeeper. We are rule enforcers not rule makers.

You can't make something up to reverse the scorekeeprs error.

2 shots and the ball.....

Is this a fair assessment...
 

The scorekeeper gave erroneous information to the officials who relayed the information to the coach in an effort to use 'preventative officiating'.

At some point after that, the scorekeeper made a change to their book which recorded a timeout by the team that was ultimately penalized.

But, what we know for sure is that the scorekeeper failed to follow 2.11.6
Art. 6... Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

They did not notify the coach through the officials when they had used their last time out.

Despite this failure by the scorekeeper, the team is assessed the technical foul for requesting (and being granted) a timeout when they had none available.

Bottom line it just a "life is hard" moment for the team that is affected by this error. No recourse by rule. Correct?

And if the Home Scorer is caught cheating. What do you do? I suppose you can go by the book. But still it would be an awful way to lose a game.

I hate to call Tees because of bookkeeping errors or calling excessive timeouts. I will of course do what I have to do. I see no problem keeping the teams informed as to the number of time outs left in a tight game. It's common practice in my area. If I move to an area where it's frowned upon I will do what's common in that particular area.

Question.
 

So if you announce it's 2 shots and one player rebounds the 1st shot and scores, you're going to count it when you now realize it was supposed to be a one and one?
If the official scorer tells the coach he has a timeout remaining and he uses it, how can you assess a technical foul?
In my opinion, that's a scorekeeper error that can be rectified with no penalty. I know I wouldn't be working very long if I issued a tech in this situation.

You won't...
 

be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.

This is why we have the casebook... get definitive rulings where other refs have screwed it up or coaches have pushed the envelope...

dont equate 1+1 situations with time outs... the mess ups are handled differently and casebook explains.

That's not true. If you announce 2 shots, then you won't count the basket in your scenario.

I understand G but that doesn't address this particular portion of my post:
Whoa Nelly!!!
This scenario is covered in the rule/case book and that is not the way you handle this scenario.

I stand corrected...
 

on the free throw error. It did feel wierd as I typed it.

Also, all the referee did was relay information directly from the scorer. Is the coach going to send someone to examine the book anytime he has a question? Of course not!! They simply ask: How many fouls on #34? How many team fouls? How many timeouts do I have left?
You can't penalize a team for the official scorer's mistake. Give them the timeout they were told they have and move on.

If you follow the rules, you sureasheck will have to penalize a team for a scorer's mistake in this particular instance. You give them the TO and you also give them the technical foul that goes with it.

Terrible advice. You have no rules justification <b>NOT</b> to issue a technical foul in this situation.

Didn't you read about what happened to the officials in the Big Sky that wanted to be Mr. Nice Guy and not follow the rules too?

It's a scorekeeper error that is not correctable, by rule. You've got it backwards. If you <b>didn't</b> follow the rules and issue a "T" in this situation, you wouldn't be working very long.

Thanks ...
 

Nevadaref: Thanks. Are there any other times, other than the correctable error mentioned in the casebook situation above, when a coach may legally come to the table, for example, to correct an incorrect alternating possession arrow?

Case Book
 

Jurassic,
Could you cite a case book play that states that this is not correctable?
Couldn't this fall under the elasticity clause?
In the case in the book about issuing false information as to the # of shots, it's a do over with no penalty to either team.
Have you ever granted a timeout incorrectly thinking you heard the coach request it?
Would you assess a technical if he didn't have any?
I have seen the situation above happen before and asked about it at camp.
Every assignor there said to get the team out of the huddle and resume from the point of interruption since they were clearly given false info by the scorer.

Can you cite a rule that says it is correctable?

You're missing the whole point.The scorer did <b>NOT</b> make an error <i>per se</i>. The team actually took 6 TO's. The scorer had 6 TO's in the official score book. Can you show me where there is any error to correct in that situation?

What you and your assignors are advocating is having the scorer <b>MAKE</b> a book error, not <b>CORRECT</b> a book error. You want them to put the <b>WRONG</b> number of TO's in the book---> 5.

I hope that all of those assignors that told you ignore the rules and make up your own never work in the Big Sky Conference. They don't take kindly there to officials who don't follow the rules. Come to think of it, I can't think of any conference anywhere that would let you away with over-riding the rule book just because you didn't think it was right.

Yes, the scorer gave out wrong information. That doesn't alter the <b>fact</b> that the scorebook was completely correct in the number of TO's taken by that team.

Is it a bad situation? Sureasheck is! As an official, can you do anything about it under the rules? No!

Straight from the rules book, my man:

10-5-2 . . . The head coach may request a time-out or signal his/her players to request a time-out, while within the confines of the coaching box. The head coach may also confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out (or one 30-second time-out if that is the only type of time-out remaining) for a correctable error as in 2-10, or to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.

Thanks ...
 

Nevadaref: Thanks. New officials should take note of your post. I knew that coaches weren't supposed to go to the table to get information about timeouts, personal fouls, team fouls, etc, and I also knew that they were allowed limited access to the table for a few things, and your post certainly makes the limitations very clear.

I think we are all under the assumption this means two minutes remaining in the forth quarter not overtime. Right?

Obviously, if OT then 6 time-outs are alloted.

6 timeouts
 

I never said anything about 6 timeouts. I mentioned that the advice was to get the teams back out and don't record the timeout. Still only 5 timeouts have been recorded.

Same thing. You're advocating not recording a TO that you have already granted. You have absolutely no rules backing to do so.

Remember the Chris Webber Michigan sixth TO in an NCAA championship game? What do you think would have happened to the careers of the officials on that game if they hadda followed your advice and said "OK, we'll ignore the call"?

Not very good advice, socal, not at all.

Jurassic
 

One question you didn't answer: If you grant a timeout to a coach that has none remaining and he/she says he didn't call it, are you issuing a technical foul, since according to your logic, the timeout has already been granted?

That situation has nothing to do with this one. They were informed they had zero timeouts and they knew it. If I'm coaching and I send my statistician to the scorer to confirm timeouts remaining and they say I got one, I should feel justified in calling one. Also, the scorer failed to fulfill his duties in informing the head coach through the officials that he had zero remaining.

That question has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing. It's not relevant in any way. In the play being discussed, there is <b>NO</b> doubt that the TO was requested. That's why I ignored this question.

Having said that, my answer to the above is "it depends".

Bull pucky that situation has nothing to do with this one. In both cases, both teams were granted six TO's. It can't be a scorer's mistake if that actually has happened. It can only be a scorer's mistake if he has got the number of TO's granted <b>wrong</b>. No matter how much you want to ignore that, it is fact. It is also a fact that there is no mechanism in place that will deal with a scorer giving out wrong information. That is a league or a conference problem, not the officials'. Officials have to follow the rules. And if you, as an official, refuse to issue a "T" to a team that has requested and been granted 6 TO's, you are not following the rules as written.

I know the rules dude, we told him, he screwed it up. My only mistake was letting him stay in the game after he went ballistic on us. I won't make that one twice ;)