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-   -   Block/Charge explanation. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/4226-block-charge-explanation.html)

Jerry Blum Tue Feb 26, 2002 09:18am

I am in my third year of reffing HS games and have actually gotten into playing in leagues this winter. I came across this last night in Rec game that I was playing in. There was a close block/charge call that the official called a block. I wasn't quite sure that I agreed with it so I went over to ask the official why he called the block instead of the player control foul. I was expecting to hear that he didn't get position before the player left the floor or before contact. However, here is what the official told me: 'It was a block because he fell to the side instead of straight back.' Has anyone ever heard this explaination before. Just thought this was interesting interpretation of the rules.

Bart Tyson Tue Feb 26, 2002 09:34am

Do you mean he fell to the side after the contact or before the contact? either way I havn't heard this before.

RX Ref Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:15am

was he watching the defense?
 
If he was watching the defender, the only thing i can think of that he means is that the offensive player got past the torso of the defender, and the contact then made the defender fall sideways. Dosn't seem like a very good explanation, but we all know this is a very tough call to make.

tharbert Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:20am

"I wasn't quite sure that I agreed with it so I went over to ask the official why he called the block instead of the player control foul...."
--------------------------
I'm more interested in how and when you talked to this guy. I hope it wasn't on the floor. How many times will you tolerate a player questioning your judgement during a game even in a rec league? Adult games are tough to call because of all the egos and basketball experts on the floor. I hope you bought the guy a beer afterwards!

Nope, I haven't heard this before. But there is enough in his an answer to presume that he was watching the play and you know he observed no legal guarding position.

Jerry Blum Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:31am

As far as what he was talking about when he said he fell to the side I think he meant after contact but I have no Idea what he was refering to.

As far as going up to him and asking him about the call, I did it after he had reported it and before we shot free throws. As far as having kids ask me about calls I will usually tolerate it if they are asking repectfully and not complaining about it as they ask the question. I admit it was probably showing him up a little but I tried to be as respectful about it as I could until I heard the answer then I told him he was wrong about the interepretaion and we continued playing. (I know I personally would have probably T'd a player that would do that.)


RecRef Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
As far as what he was talking about when he said he fell to the side I think he meant after contact but I have no Idea what he was refering to.

As far as having kids ask me about calls I will usually tolerate it if they are asking repectfully and not complaining about it as they ask the question

This could be from the mistaken belief that one has to hit the defender squarely on the torso for it to be a charge. If the defender falls backwards it is a charge. If the defender falls sideways, or spins, or, or, or, it is a block.


Bart Tyson Tue Feb 26, 2002 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef

[/B]
This could be from the mistaken belief that one has to hit the defender squarely on the torso for it to be a charge. If the defender falls backwards it is a charge.

On a typical Block/Charge play, (opponents facing each other when contact occurrs) it certainly helps the defender if he takes a hit in the chest. I will have a no call if the contact is in the shoulder. You are correct, the defender does not have to take the hit spuarely.
Now, about your statement if the defender falls backwards, this is a judgement call. At what point in his leaning back and the contact occurrs do you decide to call block vs charge?

egausch Tue Feb 26, 2002 12:34pm

How about this sitch. Seen this many times and called both ways. Bigger, slower, A1 dribbling down court, near his own escape velocity. B1, smaller, quicker, jumps right in front of A1, hands/arms vertical, feet facing B1. Bamm!! No way A1 can stop without contact. Seems unfair to call PC when A1 is, likely, only trying to draw the foul, rather than using his quickness to actively defend. Rules say it's PC. No time or distance required. How do you guys make this call? What factors, if any, play into the judgement?
EG

Kelvin green Tue Feb 26, 2002 02:26pm

First no one ever said all the rules had to be fair :)

Does it matter that B1 is only trying to draw the foul? He has met the rule. He had established legal guarding position and thus is playing GOOD Defense (unless of course you want to get in the discussion if he had set up under the basket but weve been down that road) He has used his quickness to actively defend. He got in front of him in legal guarding position... A has two choices go around him or foul, not my fault A is too slow to go around. B forced the foul, and the turnover. There are no factors that play in the judgement. If In my judgement he has established legal guarding position the offense gets the foul. Why bail the offense out here? I will make the PC call on tis one no doubt.

This isnt any different that setting legal moving screens, setting the blind side screen with the appropriate distance, or one of a myriad of actions that teams use to get a team to violate or foul.

If someone sets a pick and gives the player the one or two steps and then has a violent collision then the foul must be on the screener because it just seems unfair that the screener could cause such a violent collision without penalty.

It seems unfair to call a T when a player only swings his elbows with no contact.

RecRef Tue Feb 26, 2002 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef


On a typical Block/Charge play, (opponents facing each other when contact occurrs) it certainly helps the defender if he takes a hit in the chest. I will have a no call if the contact is in the shoulder. You are correct, the defender does not have to take the hit spuarely.
Now, about your statement if the defender falls backwards, this is a judgement call. At what point in his leaning back and the contact occurrs do you decide to call block vs charge? [/B]

Let’s brake this down into two parts.

Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.

In the second game A1 is driving the baseline with B2 set and blocking A1’s way on the baseline. (B1 was already beat and was following the play.) At the last possible moment B2 cowers and taking a side step moves away from the baseline but still within 3 feet of it. A1 hits him on the shoulder and both go down. Charge on A1.


As for the defender falling backwards, it is not my statement. All I said is that it may be an outgrowth of the misconception about where the hit took place. The fact is I don’t look at the aftermath of the hit to make my call.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 26, 2002 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef
[B
Let’s brake this down into two parts.
[/b]

Stop. ;)

Quote:

Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.


So far, I have no call. What happened next?

Quote:

In the second game A1 is driving the baseline with B2 set and blocking A1’s way on the baseline. (B1 was already beat and was following the play.) At the last possible moment B2 cowers and taking a side step moves away from the baseline but still within 3 feet of it. A1 hits him on the shoulder and both go down. Charge on A1.


Agreed.

Oz Referee Tue Feb 26, 2002 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green
First no one ever said all the rules had to be fair :)
This isnt any different that setting legal moving screens,

What's a legal moving screen?

egausch Tue Feb 26, 2002 03:17pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kelvin green
[B]First no one ever said all the rules had to be fair :)

Does it matter that B1 is only trying to draw the foul? He has met the rule. He had established legal guarding position and thus is playing GOOD Defense (unless of course you want to get in the discussion if he had set up under the basket but weve been down that road) He has used his quickness to actively defend. He got in front of him in legal guarding position... A has two choices go around him or foul, not my fault A is too slow to go around. B forced the foul, and the turnover. There are no factors that play in the judgement. If In my judgement he has established legal guarding position the offense gets the foul. Why bail the offense out here? I will make the PC call on tis one no doubt.

This isnt any different that setting legal moving screens, setting the blind side screen with the appropriate distance, or one of a myriad of actions that teams use to get a team to violate or foul.

I understand what your saying and this is the understanding I have from the rules. And yes, who says they have to be fair. I'll also avoid the under the hoop debate. But... Who is responsible for the contact? If someone jumps in front of a moving train, is it the train/conductor who initiated the contact? or is it the idiot who jumped in front? It's this question of "Who initiated the contact?" that seems to be where judgement could come into play. I have the same issue when an offensive player upfakes and then steps under the defender for the sole purpose of drawing a foul. Can't it be said that the offensive player initiated the contact?
EG


Bart Tyson Tue Feb 26, 2002 03:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef


Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.



In the second game A1 is driving the baseline with B2 set and blocking A1’s way on the baseline. (B1 was already beat and was following the play.) At the last possible moment B2 cowers and taking a side step moves away from the baseline but still within 3 feet of it. A1 hits him on the shoulder and both go down. Charge on A1.



[/B]
I would have to see this play. If dribbler bulls his way through and knocks down the opponent then i might have PC. when going between two players the dribble, (for lack of better words)can't bounce off the defender and the defender takes a hard shoulder foul.

Again, i would have to see the play. I most cases of shoulder contact the def. going down is flopping. Shoulder contact doesn't knock down opponent. And in this example, with the def. moving away to give room, I would be even less likely to believe the contact made him go down. I might even have block for flopping.

RecRef Tue Feb 26, 2002 03:59pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef


Stop. ;)

Quote:

Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.


So far, I have no call. What happened next?

A1 went down with both B1 and B2 still standing and looking down at him.

Bart Tyson Tue Feb 26, 2002 04:03pm

Why would you stop the game with a PC when both def. are still standing? This could stop a fast break going the other way.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 26, 2002 04:29pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RecRef
Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef


Stop. ;)

Quote:

Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.


So far, I have no call. What happened next?

A1 went down with both B1 and B2 still standing and looking down at him.
Then how did A disadvantage B?

I'd have a no call.

RecRef Tue Feb 26, 2002 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Why would you stop the game with a PC when both def. are still standing? This could stop a fast break going the other way.
Because A1 by trying to split the defenders violated Rule 10-6-2 and Case Book 10.6.2C.

We are not talking about incidental contact.

The what if fast break has nothing to do with the play as A2 could have picked up the ball an shot a goal just as easily as a B fast break.

Plus, I am getting a little tired of the dribbler trying to take on the defender with what is clearly a charge/moving into situation just like they see the big guys in the NBA do. This because they think that they will not be called on it or the defense will get a block called on them.

RecRef Tue Feb 26, 2002 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Then how did A disadvantage B?

I'd have a no call. [/B]
Then you have no call.

I do because A tried to take the advantage of the blocking defense away from B by trying to go through them.

Kelvin green Tue Feb 26, 2002 04:51pm

OZ... legal moving screen

the one I am the most familiar is that A1 is going to basket on fastbreak A2 is following and A2 slows down (without changing path) and causes a traffic jam so that A1 has a free layup.

egausch

There is nothing in the rule book about initiating contact. I would throw that out of my mind. You hear the "initiated contact" stuff on TV all the time. It does not matter who initiated the contact. Who was legal and who was not? who was vertical and who was not? Who broke verticality and who did not?

To have a foul you must have contact that impedes, hinedrs etc.
If the defense meets legal guarding rules and the offense hinders,pushes, etc then the offense has committed the foul.

If the offense fakes, and the defense jumps up and then the offense goes into him why is that difficult. In this situation as described it's an easy PC call.

Defense had legal guarding poistion. If he jumps straight up then he is in his verticality and foul is on offense.

If defense gets around a player and establishes legal guarding position then the foul is on the offense. If the defense does not establish legal guarding position then the contact is on the defense.

This is why your hear from referees about officiating the defence (spelled it that way out of defernce for the Aussies who won two gold medals here in Salt Lake). If you ref the defense you will know who was not legal and who was not. In fact sometimes when you are watching highlevel NCAA or NBA ame that there are some what appear to be obvious travels missed, is because they are reffing the defense. I think PC calls are the easiest ones to call when you ref the defense.

BTW who is reposnsible for the train wreck? I dont think that in US statutory or common law there is an allowance for someone to drive in front of a moving train, so I am not sure that is a good analogy. (Depending on what the engineer is doing there may be contributory neglience...)


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