Going OOB=T?-FIBA
 

Since a discussion about this started here I thought we could continue it in this thread insted of hijacking the other one.
I have heard that leaving the playing court to avoid a defensive player in FIBA is a warning or a T, but I have never seen this rule in the book. Nor have I ever had it mentioned to me during any referee training, so, is this a rule? If so what is the penalty for it, or should we call this at all?
I personally only have one instance in wich I was really close to warning a player, that was when he run outside the baseline to avoid a defender in the key, I didn't though becuse I felt I couldn't support it. I don't like to call this and then explain for the coach that "no it's not in the book but I've heard it is in the case book in a case I havn't seen".
Well I didn't call it...

There used to be this rule. But apparently they forgot to carry it over during some rule revision. :mad:

IMO, I am in agreement with you Crazy. It is not an actual rule but is mentioned in the casebook. The casebook as you put in the other post refers to a technical for not following an officials directions. Which in the situation happened to be after a warning for going out of bounds to gain an advantage.

As far as I have been told by our interpreter here in Manitoba, if the player does this and gains an advantage that enables them to score, then you would have to make stop the play. Wipe the basket and issue the warning and/or Tech.

I have not even come close to this happening as yet, but it is our first full season under FIBA rules.

I have called what is it now, almost 4 seasons (that's how long I've been a ref) and I've only once been close to call this. Once

@eg-italy Do you know when it disappered? And it seams weird they would just miss it, you sure it wasn't removed? But then why would it, I really like the rule (case what-ever it is)-

here's some support from fiba rules:

4.2.2 Five (5) players from each team shall be on the playing court during playing time and may be substituted.

23.1.1 A player is out-of-bounds when any part of his body is in contact with the floor or any object other than a player, on, above or outside the boundary line.

Here's the problem.

The act of going out-of-bounds specifically to avoid a defensive player in itself is not covered in the rules.

However, with rule 4.2.2 as our background, we can warn players not to leave the court, and if they don't listen...

38.3.1 A technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioural nature including, but not limited to:

- Disregarding warnings by officials.

Which means I was wrong to make that call, as I did twice in a game earlier this year :S

So you can warn them not to do something that isn't explicitly prohibited? And if they don't follow that, you can T them up?

So, to expand on this: If you're getting tired of rough play on free throws, could you just warn the players to keep their hands to themselves? If they don't comply, can you give them a T?

For me, I even have a problem justifying the warning. It's as if there is something missing/been removed in the rules and they missed removing the casebook play.

What do YOU think?

Without rules support, I think both cases are being overly officious.

I suppose the difference is you still have a case play to support the one; even if the rule is non-existent.

But there are rules about rough play on free throws... personal fouls!

Yup, but there's no rule that requires the players to keep their hands within the various planes around their lane spaces; yet I've seen officials warn the players to stay "straight up" or "within your lanes."

I don't remember precisely and I don't have the old rule books at hand. IIRC, it was added not at the technical foul section, but somewhere else; I guess it disappeared during the first major revision of the rule book, some years ago.

I filed a question to Fred Horgan, let's wait for some official answer.

@canuckref: using 4.2.2 for this seems to be stretching somewhat the sense of the words, IMO

Ciao

As a offical who works games played under FIBA rules this is how I'd haddle this...

While there is no specific rule that I have found about leaving the court for an un-authorized reason; the game of basketball is meant to be played within the boundary lines. A player the continues to play outside of the spirit of the game needs to be dealt with. Enforcement of this could fall under Rule 8, Art 46, Sec 13 which states "The referee has the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered by the rules"

If you as an official believe that a player leaving the floor gains an unfair advantage, it is your responsibility to deal with it. I'd warn first because it's the fair thing to do and if it happens again I'd assess a technical foul under rule
38.3.1 "a technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioural nature including, but not limited to:

-Disregarding warnings by the officials.
- etc...

My 2 cents...

I agree that a player intentionally leaving the boundaries of the court in order to gain an advantage could be a technical foul. I have called such a situation only once (in 20 years of refereeing), when a player ran around the outside of the court to avoid a defensive player.

However looking at the 2006 FIBA rules, I can't find anything that specifically mentions it. The best I could come up with was:

<i>38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play. </i>

This seems to me to be a provision that makes "cheating" a technical foul, even if there isn't a specific mention of it elsewhere in the rules.

Oh, as an aisde, a few people made mention that this is mentioned <b>"in the casebook"</b>, there is NO casebook for FIBA, so I assume you are talking NFHS/NCAA?

Cheers

Duane

Duane,
From July to December one of our locals was in Melbourne and working some hoops while his wife was working a real job.
He had glowing comments about your country.
:)

Yes Duane, there is a Fiba casebook dated 2004 available in NZ so it must have been available in Oz, I have one.
cheers.........Nick

It seems that even if there was something in the book in the past, it's rarely called. That is why NFHS changed their ruling to a violation for gaining an advantage on going off the court to avoid a screen. Now you do see it called more frequently. Until that time I had only seen it called once.

Duane I was assigned a casebook with my rule book, mechanics, equipment,interpretations, etc. So it must be somewhere out there.

There is, somewhere, either in the interpetations or the rules or in some training material I have. I don't know
I can't find where it's written right now, how ever, there are two types of lines. Lines who act like a wall and lines with air above them.
When you're standing at a FT the line around you is a wall, you're not allowed to cross it before the shooter has released the ball.
I'll try and find it for you, but I'm absolutley sure I'm right about this one.

There is, according to fiba.com, no official casebook for FIBA.
How ever I belive that some local fiba-associations have produced own casebooks. But there is no world-wide fiba casebook.
from FIBA.comI think that this is (like I sad) way to vauge for me to call it.
Even though the game should be played inbounds, I can't go and T a player just becuse I say that this is the rule and he then must listen. That'll just turn the players against you (since they'll think that you're making up the rules).
I don't know, but I don't like the idea of a phantom or ghost rule wich some call and some don't, it seams that nobody has some real and plain text of it, and until I get it. I won't call this...

I have in front of me something called:

Fiba Official Basketball Rules World Edition Casebook - 2006 Published by Fiba, 80 pages long. I will try and find an internet link to the book for you.

Update: I found a link to a PDF file. It says its 2004 casebook but appears the same as 2006 version I have, Article 38-5 is the same, good luck with the download:
http://zone1officials.homestead.com/..._Case_Book.pdf

Q: Where can I get a FIBA Casebook?
There is no FIBA Casebook. FIBA does not publish casebooks.

I believe this is a Canadian thing, which has never been officially approved by FIBA. I don't know why. There are some rule interpretations each year which can be found on FIBA.com, but no casebook.

Actually 38-5 seems to be what we were looking for; on the other hand, the wording in 38-7 seems to recall the rule I remember was in the rule book (and disappeared).

Weird, this really looks like an official world wide casebook, just read the introduction.
And cases 38-5 and 38-7 specificly talks about what we have mentioned...
Well then I guess I'll call it if I ever see it again...
Thanks for the link, this one will be usefull!

Casebook
 

I definately have a casebook in ONtario

We switched rules 2 years ago and we all got a Printed Rule Book and Casebook in the same format and same print and looks very official to me. It has the FIBA logo on it which means it would be a FIBA publication and not a FIBA Americas only. Plus like somebody mentioned the second page in it says that it was produced by FredHorgan from Fiba Americas FOR FIBA.

That is one thing I don't like about FIBA... All the zones do their own thing kinda. Like for example Training videos are produced only by FIBA Europe for their own officials...they should make everything international.

The casebook refers to the 2004 rules. We are now using the 2006 rules which does not have reference to purposely running out of bounds. If I have this situation I would stop the game and issue a warning. If it is repeated I would just call a violation and give the ball to the opposition.

Case 38-5 is the same in both the 2004 and 2006 FIBA written casebooks I have

There's no provision in FIBA rules to stop the game in order to issue a warning, if the ball is live and the clock is running. You can stop the clock if a player of the scoring team interferes with the ball before an opponent can get it and issue a warning for delay of game, but here the ball is dead. You can stop a throw-in when a defender breaks the wall.

Moreover there's no "going OOB violation": it's either a T or a warning at the next dead ball. Unfortunately, as I've already said, this case disappeared from the rule book, I believe before 2004.

CANUCKREF
Fiba casebook ruling 38.5 refers to rule 38.5 in the rules, but if you check the latest 2006 official Fiba rulebook there is no such thing as rule 38.5

EG-ITALY
Article 46.13 states that the referee has the power to make any decisions on any point not specifically covered by these rules.

cheers- Nick

You can't use 46.13 to invent a new kind of violation: they are specifically covered by the rules.

Ciao

FIBA Casebook
 

As per several of the replies here (and the FIBA website), <b> there is no FIBA casebook </b> there are, however, casebooks published by FIBA member states (Canada and NZ to name 2 that I am aware of).

EG-Italy.....you absolutely can use 46.13 to invent a new type of violation. That is the specific intent of the this provision, so that the referee can make a judgement on anything that is not specifically covered in the rules - whether it be a violation, foul etc. Otherwise, what's the point of this rule?

I don't think so. The point of the rule is to give support to officials in case something happens which couldn't be thought of in advance when writing the rules. You can't devise a new kind of violation: they are part of playing technique, everybody has to know how basketball is played, and they are precisely described in the rules.

Nothing in the present rules suggests that it is disallowed to play OOB. Coaches teach to put a foot OOB when defending on a player who's dribbling along the sideline and the same Fred Horgan says this is allowed; you can "play OOB" during a throw in after a basket. Last, the rule about going OOB deliberately to obtain an advantage has been canceled.

Personally I still continue to consider this worthy of a warning and a T after that (or an immediate T if blatant). But I would be very careful to use the elastic power to say "violation for going OOB". There's only one case when "going OOB" is a violation and it's very different: it's 17.3.2 (breaking the plane during a throw in) and has actually nothing to do with being OOB, since a player can violate even being in bounds.

My main point is: that rule existed (T after warning or immediate T). Since it's not there any more, there are two cases: (a) they forgot to carry it over during a revision; (b) they don't think it's illegal.

I'm with (a), let's wait for the people in Geneva to wake up.

Ciao

eg-italy
"Nothing in the present rules suggests that it is disallowed to play OOB. Coaches teach to put a foot OOB when defending on a player who's dribbling along the sideline and the same Fred Horgan says this is allowed; you can "play OOB" during a throw in after a basket. Last, the rule about going OOB deliberately to obtain an advantage has been canceled"

Somehow I think you are contradicting yourself. Anything deliberately done by the offensive team to gain an unfair advantage is a violation. Putting a foot OOB to defend is a nothing as they, the defenders do not have control of the ball and cannot lose possession.

What does your Rules Interpreter say? have you aked him/her?

cheers.......Nick

I'm just pointing out that the rules are ambiguous about this situation.

For example, why should the infraction be limited to the offensive team? Isn't it an unfair advantage for the defense going OOB to avoid a screen along the baseline?

Again, you can't call a violation for "illegally going OOB". There's nothing in the rules that supports this call: it's either a T (possibly a warning at the first occurrence for each team) or nothing. The rules decide what are the unfair advantages which are a violation; for example, deliberately kicking the ball is a violation for either team and is not limited to the offensive team.

Some case not covered by the rules can happen; the referee decides what to do and after that it is possible that the rule committee issues an official interpretation or a new rule. Some years ago it became frequent to go OOB in order to avoid a 3 second violation or a screen and the committee issued the rule we are talking about.

The concept of unfair advantage changes: it used to be basket interference to play the ball inside the cylinder, now it's not (FIBA rules, of course). Canceling a rule has a meaning just as adding a new one: when the cylinder rule was canceled it became legal to play the ball inside it.

Talking by paradox: the rule about going OOB was there, now it's been canceled; therefore now it's legal. :eek: No, I don't think it is. :)

The casebook I have is most definitely not a local thing. It is titled Fiba Casebook WORLD EDITION and is written by members of the FIBA World Technical Commission, for use in international play. You are relying on an old f.a.q. posted on fiba website that says there is no casebook...that info is seriously out of date. Two WORLD EDITION casebooks have been published: 2004 and 2006. In both casebooks they refer to CASE 38-5 there is no rule 38-5. It is a warning to the player followed by a technical foul if the player goes out of bounds again. Thats the way I am going to call this situation. I believe it is a clear advantage to run out of bounds in you frountcourt to play offense.

I hate to repeat myself, but, <b> there is no FIBA casebook</b>. The casebook you refer to was written by Fred Horgan, the North American official rules interpreter. It applies ONLY to North American FIBA referees.

The reason for this is simple. While each country plays under FIBA rules, and usually implements the entire FIBA rulebook, there may be individual differences between FIBA member states. For example, when the possession arrow was introduced to FIBA rules, Basketball Australia (the local governing body) decided not to implement it as per the FIBA rules, but instead to wait 6 months - this was due to the timing of the rule change and the Australian basketball season. As a result, an official FIBA endorsed rulebook was published in Australia - while it was a FIBA publication, it only applied to Australia. In a similar way, the casebook that you have is a FIBA publication, but it is only relevant to FIBA North America.

FIBA only publishes 5 documents relevant to refereeing:

1. Official Basketball Rules 2006
2. Official Fitness Test for Referees
3. FIBA Official Basketball Rules 2006 - Official Interpretations
4. Offical Basketball Rules 2006 - Referees' Manual (2 person)
5. Offical Basketball Rules 2006 - Referees' Manual (3 person)

It also publishes 3 documents regarding the education of referees that are the scripts of the educaiton DVD's.

Oz Referee
The casebook is published by FIBA, copyrighted by FIBA and edited by FIBA. So I am pretty confident there IS a casebook available to officials and it is not just for 2 countries. Perhaps your association did not want to spend the money.

Here is the contact information for getting copies:
FIBA
Chemin de Blandonnet 8
PO Box 715
CH-1214 Vernier
Geneva, Switzerland.
Telephone: 41 22 545 0000
email: [email protected]

OZ Referee if you contact Steve Smith at FIBA Oceania in Coffs Harbour.That is where I bought the FIBA casebooks for use in NZ

There was an answer by Fred Horgan:

Question: A player goes out of bounds in order to avoid a screen, a 3 second violation or, more generally, to take an advantage.

There's no mention of this in the present rule book, but there used to be.

What's the correct procedure? What rules can support the official's decisions?

Answer: Depending of the circumstances, a technical foul could be called. However, the FIBA philosophy is that a warning should be given before calling a technical on a repetition of that infraction. This warning applies to all players of both teams and is therefore delivered to the coaches as well.

Ciao

intresting indeed, well it seams that we are more or less agreed, but still... I don't like the fact that I can't take up my rulebook point it to the coach and say "it's in here", becuse it's not!

Even though Fred answers with the information we already know, there is still no rule reference to support the answer. So if a coach will take, "Fred Horgan said so!" as my explanation I am good to go.

Probably the coach would say: "Who's Fred Horgan? Show me the written rule."

The problem is, as I said, that the rule used to be written, but has disappeared.

It's a case similar to that of the rule about BI after a foul on the shooter: for a period of time it was legal to touch the ball after it had hit the ring and was still over ring level. Now it's not, because they realized to have forgotten to carry on the exception from a previous edition.

Ciao

Fred Horgan is Canadian! :p

Ozreferee,
[II was the one who got the fiba casebooks into NZ and as I bought them from Steve Smith at Coffs Harbour and he is the FIBA Oceania sec.general I guess they must be official and available for you ib Australia also?