when a player fouls out...how many minutes does the coach have to decide on a substitution??

when a ball is held by two players...how long does the ball need to be held for it to be called a jump ball?

Thanks
a Concerned Coach...

When a player has committed his or her 5th foul, the ideal situation is to have the scorekeeper notify you as you're reporting the foul. An experienced official will already know that that player just picked up his 5th foul.

After you have completed your signals, etc. to the table, the calling official notifies the head coach of the fouled out player that a player has fouled out. At this point, the coach has 30 seconds to make a substitution. You then proceed to tell the player that he has fouled out. Depending on the situation, you might want to ask the timer to time 30 seconds for you. In this case, I usually ask him to give me a nod at 20 seconds, where I will ask the coach to provide a substitute.

Edit:

There's no time requirement for a held ball to be called. I usually give each player a good tug. If after that, it's fairly clear that one person will get the ball with another tug, then I let it go. If however, they both have an equal oppoutunity to the ball after the first tug, I call it. Of course, if two players are rolling on the floor, or even falling to the floor, I have a much quicker whislte, usually to prevent an injury.

Mike

Juggler,just a liitle point.You should always tell the scorer to time the 30 seconds,and then tell you when the 30 seconds is up.That procedures somewhere in the casebook,but I ain't looking it up.:DGood preventive officiating to remind the coach to get his butt in gear,though.

When coaches see me reffing their game, they immediately go into high respect mode and they would never think of taking more than 30 seconds, hence and I rarely need to bring up the issue of having just 30 seconds for a substitution.

LOL

But you're right, Jurassic. Good preventative officiating.

Mike

Mike,
I gotta get more experience.
mick

trippingants,

I like to allow the players to determine posession within a couple of seconds before I stop play.

Sometimes, if the play appears to be getting ugly (possible injury) and with neither player having solid control, I will call a jump in order to arrest additional action. This is not per rule, but my choice.

Other times, the players could just be trying to get the ball for several seconds with nobody getting control. Bodies all over the place and no whistles. Just a lot of thumbs after a "soapy" ball.

But, there is also the "immediate jump ball" where a defender's hand stops the release of a pass or a shot from the ball handler's. For this play there should be no delay.

mick

Immediate Jump vs. Blocked Shot vs. Foul
 

Sometimes it's difficult to tell at game speed (remember, I'm new! haha) the difference between an immediate jump ball, a blocked shot, and when that action is actually a foul...so I go to the well of knowledge... =)

SmartA$$ young whippersnapper!Grumble,grumble,grumble....:D

Re: Immediate Jump vs. Blocked Shot vs. Foul
 

TxBktball03,
See if this works for you.

Immediate : ball remains in offensive player's hand shortly after contact; ... just cannot release it.

Blocked shot : ball leaves offensive player's hand shortly after contact.

Foul : Wrist leaves offensive player's hand shortly before the ball, or wrist/arm at least gets hit before the ball is contacted.

How much is shortly? As much, or as little, as you want it to be.

mick

I take exception to your first paragraph concerning the play getting ugly. The scenario in your first paragraph is not different that the scenario in your second paragraph. It is my opinion that officials call held balls too soon. It is not an official's job to arrest additional action. If a foul occurs before then call the foul, but do not call a held ball when there is none just to prevent the possibility of a foul.

I guess this leads to one of my pet peeves. Get rid of this abomination called alternating possession. FIBA and NBA/WNBA uses the jump ball to put the ball into play for all held balls.

Just two weeks ago, I officiated a boys' H.S. freshmen game that if we could used a jump ball to put the ball back into play after a held ball we could have had the ball back into play a lot sooner. Here is the situation: Visiting team does not provide a scorer, so the home scorebook (official scorebook) is the only scorebook at the scorer's table. The home team gains control of the ball off the jump ball to start the third overtime period (yeah, yeah, I know), I become the Trail opposite the table and check that the arrow is pointing toward's the visitor's basket and it is. We have no held balls or jump ball situations until there is a held ball under the visitors basket with thirty seconds left in the game and the visitors are down by three points. Up until this point in the overtime period we had not had any timeouts, so there were no opportunities to go to the table in the late going to check the book. You guessed it the horn sounds and I as the Referee (I violated the Danny Doss's No. 1 Rule of basketball officiating, never be the R) was called to Table. The Scorebook has the Home team with the arrow. I called my partner over and we discussed it for all of thirty seconds and declared the Scorebook incorrect and gave the ball to the Visitors. If we had been able to go to the jump ball we would not have had the mess we had. The Home Coach did not like it one bit and the Scorer was not happy either, but we managed not to have a technical foul on the Home Coach.

Mark,you can take exception with me,too.I've called quick jump balls,just like Mick,if I felt the situation warranted it.I don't think you can really fault an official if he's doing it with the idea of stopping possible problems with potential rough play,and the quick jump ball would not have any real effect on the final score.The call depends on what the official wants to accomplish at that particular point in that particular game.Might not be by the book,but it can save everybody a lot of headaches at times--and not just the referees.
Mea culpa,too!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 26th, 2002 at 08:50 AM]

Mea culpa, young man.

A lot of times, the level of the game and the skill level determines the speed with which I call a jump ball. If I am calling a missle school girls game, I call it very fast. Why? The times I didn't, elbows start flying and tempers soar. HS boys, I let them tug a little.

Is this a school for teaching girls how to make missles, or how to launch the missles? Either way, it's gotta be a tough league!! :D

Chuck

"An experienced official will already know that that player just picked up his 5th foul"

Why, and how, in the world would you want to keep track of fouls? There's enough to do on the court without keeping mental scorekeeping.

Bob

Thanks bluezebra!

I thought I was the only one that felt I had enough to do without keeping track of the fouls. There have been a couple of times that I knew a player had just committed number 5, but only because I remember calling a couple of fouls on him close together then my partner whistled him. In those situations, I can remember one player, but not everyone.

Why would you want to know fouls? It's called good game management. Referees are responsible for everything that happens on the floor and if you dont know it will come back and haunt you.

I had a game the other night.. oh my we had the table from well you figure it out. We had to reset the time on the clock twice in the first minute and half. We called the third foul of the game and played awhile longer. The scoreboard showed 1 team foul on each team. At a timeout with 5:30 or so in the quarter I asked the book if there werent two fouls on the visitor. he said no there were only one on each team. I knew there was a foul on both 23 and 21 and told him there were two team fouls. At that point it was a wole lot easier to fix than worrying about correctable errors (BTW the visiting book then stated she had all the fouls) If we would have let it go or not noticed in the second quarter we would have to had fixed it, and maybe even been in a correctable error situation. Official Book shows 6 fouls when there were really 7, home team should shoot 1 and 1 and doesnt...
Clock did not start with 2.5 second left in half and home team had ball, I waved off a shot that was going to go in....
Later on the starting center of home team fouls out. I was pretty sure it was his fifth (he deserved it because he wouldnt listen....) He also knew it was his fifth. He picked up a T before the table verified it was his fifth so the coach did not pick up the indirect.

Later on in the game we came out of a timeout with about 3 1/2 minutes left in the game score was 48-53. Home scores and the points now show 51-53. Visitor scores a 3 now 51-56. Home scores now 53-56. We have a foul to kill the action. after reporting we took the time to figure out what went wrong. turns out the score should have been 49-53 coming out of the time out. When we verified the scorebooks, both had the identical scores which then matched with the board...

You need to know fouls/scoreboard/clocks/etc You need to know what's going on in the game otherwise you are not doing your job

Others have pointed out that the coach has 30 seconds in most states.

In IL, the player must be replaced immediately.

IMHO, the "experiment" was a success. It could make the rule book next year.

I thought that the time for a coach to decide on a substitution was 1 minute, but you have cleared me on that one.

I also thought that the ball had to be held for a few second (3, etc...) until it was called a jump...

i have one more question to post in a few...

thanks...!

"I guess this leads to one of my pet peeves. Get rid of this abomination called alternating possession. FIBA and NBA/WNBA uses the jump ball to put the ball into play for all held balls."

This is DEFINITELY a sign that the Apocalypse is upon us.
Mr.D and I having the same thoughts on an issue.:eek::confused:;)

JR,

I've recently had another "Old Guy" tell me that if you call the 5th...after reporting, get out of dodge and have the other official notify the coach and get the sub. Reasoning is that since "you" fouled the kid out, Mr. coach in some cases may not be happy with you per say.

Whats your take?

Larks - VIT

My take -- it depends. IF it the end of the game and the team is, ummm, playing aggressive defense and not caring if they get a foul, then just stay there and handle it.

If you think there's any kind of controversey, then let your partner handle it.

Here is a matrix for what's right to know and what's wrong regarding foul counts. Of course, I am always right ;)

Right: knowing the team foul count

Wrong: letting anyone, including your partner, know that you know the number of fouls on any individual player

Wrong: letting your knowledge of either team or individual fouls influence your calls in any way

Gray area: actually knowing the number of fouls on any individual player

Personally - I try to stay away from that gray area because someone might find out and that's a "wrong"

JR,

I've recently had another "Old Guy" tell me that if you call the 5th...after reporting, get out of dodge and have the other official notify the coach and get the sub. Reasoning is that since "you" fouled the kid out, Mr. coach in some cases may not be happy with you per say.

Whats your take?

Larks - VIT


[/B][/QUOTE]Larks,my take is that you couldn't get any better advise than what Bob Jenkins recommended in his post!

That's actually the approved mechanic in Louisiana. LHSAA's Mac Chauvin has come out and said the off call official will notify the coach and then then the player of the 5th foul. Bob has the reason down pat. Since that's where I cut my referee teeth, I thought it was strange that everybody else didn't do that ;)