Juulie, I found your two 'worst officials'...
 

... they worked my 5th grade National (lower) boys CYO final tonight!

All season long I had been trying to gear for the reality that our post season games would be officiated by 'real' officials, not the youth referees we had for most of the season.

My team went 9-1, mostly because we were the pressing, in your face, not very skilled but persistent team. We caught other teams by surprise, beat them up a little, and got away with it.

I've been transitioning to more run back and play solid defense in the half court.

So last night I had the youth ref and a the young adult ref and they did a good job. Tonight I was expecting a higher caliber, and the refs that did the game before mine (I just peeked in) fit that bill. I thought the we would be well officiated.

Well, that was not the case. Talk about 2 guys who gave nothing. Calling the game while walking up the court... they let the boys just beat the crap out of each other. I was in a state of disbelief. I knew where I stood when A1 passed from the frontcourt to A2 in the backcourt... and there was no call. No subtleties here, clearly in the front court, clearly in the back court.

So, long story short, my top player has a soccer tryout and may make an appearance. My #3 player is the guy who was involved in the fight yesterday, and is ineligible for this game. We are at the other teams home gym and they have about 4 times as many fans as ours. Opposing coach is playing to the crowd, pumping up the volume. We are getting smoked 10-2 at halftime.

No calls. Players travelling, pushing, grabbing, bumping.

Well, the light bulb finally turned on for me. I told my 'let's press, let's press, let's press' assistant "you're getting your wish tonight". We turned the dogs loose, beat the livin' crap out of the other team and pulled to within 4 at the end of 3.

Just after the 4th quarter starts, my 'star' comes running in the door. The place was a madhouse, but he is just happy to be there and ready to play. My team is energized and they just bring it. We continue to beat the crap out of opposition and get away with it. Tie, go up 2, up 4. We have only 3 team fouls, so with 1:30 to go we are going to take it up another notch and go "red zone" (intentional fouling that I had taught the boys last week). Even if they call 'em we can use some time up.

At this point I realize that maybe I should have gone to intentional foul mode much earlier, as these refs will not call fouls.

Anyways, we win by 3. Super effort by the boys, and I am ultimately genuinely shocked and appalled by the officiating tonight.

Hmmmm. So when crappy officiating helps you, you like it. When it's costing you, (allegedly), it sucks.

Go figure. YOu're an idiot.

Walking ???
 

No excuse for this. Everything else? I don't know. It's a matter of perspective.

ROFL!! I'm laughing my head off. This is unquestionably the post of the week.

Next year, call me, Padgett and I will fly in and wow 'em with our "experience" and "dedication to the game". We're both old and gray, but they'll get everything we've got!

Noooo!
 

What I've learned on the coaching side this year is to react to what you've got from the team in stripes.
That is certainly debatable.

I don't get this at all. How can stopping the clock use some time up? Why would you want to send the other team to the line and then give them the ball back if you were ahead? :confused:

Maybe we should take a poll on that idiot thing. ;) (note the winky face)

They only had 3 team fouls...no FTs were going to be taken....he wasn't saying it was an "Intentional" foul, but an intentional/deliberate/strategic foul designed to only draw a common foul. He was expecting the refs to not even call anything at all given the stuff they called all night but if they did call something he was OK with that....expecing that it would, if called at all, be a common foul.

Such fouling before the bonus can be beneficial. Even though the clock stops on the foul, each throwin situation will take "some" amount of time. When a team gets anywhere in what could be a threatening but not yet shooting situation, foul them. The throwin will likely be made to a postion less threatening....hence at least 2-3 seconds saved...probably 5-10 before they can work it back into a similar position.

In fact, Tennessee employed a similar stategy against Memphis on Saturday. UT was up 3 with little time remaining. Memphis, who shoots FT's poorly, had the ball. UT deliberated fouled....sending UM to the line for 1+1. And it worked....UM, IIRC, missed the first shot and UT got the rebound sealing the victory.

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

CA - while not in the same class game as you, I had one of two less experienced, adult refs dissappointingly work my son's semi final game this weekend too. Like you, I expected two Sr Officials. This guy usually does G7/8 and G9/10 and hadn't done a game at the B13/15 level all yr - bad decision by the assignor IMO - oh well. As others have said - gotta live with what you get.

He didn't do a stellar job, again IMO, but hey, ultimately, my boys lost by 3 because they were out played and made too many turnovers. Not by anything the official did or didn't do. The boys can whine and complain all they want (heck they're teenagers, that's what they do when things don't go their way) I would hear none of it and told em to stop complaining and play. As I always say - make ALL your layups and free throws and you'll win the game regardless of anything else....they didn't.

I coached, "chirped a bit", asked for a few calls and never gottem - oh well, I sat back down, accepted the calls, and continued to try and coach my best. What else can I do if I want to set the example? It was a great game, came down to the last seconds and we lost - period.

We won the regular season championship and finished 11-3 overall. The boys had a good run and didn't make it all the way. Just like all playoffs - only one team wins their last game of the season. There's always next yr.......

And now, this Sat, I ref the five league championship games.....and get to hear everyone talk bad about me! :D

Very well said. I concur completely. Players at that age deserve better than what they got.

Awesome post!

And I am genuinely shocked and appalled that any coach would go to those extremes with 5th. grade kids just to get a win. And I am even more shocked and appalled that the coach would come on an officials' forum and brag about it. And even worse, as a supposed official you recognized that you had inexperienced youth officials that are still learning, and you took full advantage of their inexperience in your quest for the almighty win. Did it ever cross your mind to think how you would have felt as an inexperienced official if you were put into that exact same situation by some dickhead coach?

You shouldn't be anywhere near youth basketball. You're sad. And if you're going to take your personal philosophy into officiating, we really don't need you in that avocation either.

Word.

Word.

Gotta admit I really don't see what's funny here.

I dont know.. sometimes I think they actually prop a stiff up there... but.. cant really tell.

Okay, I'll explain my thinking, but I'm not going to argue. In the OP, a coach, who is also learning to referee used his reffing experience to win a game. He planned to do that, and he managed to win, but not in the way he planned. That's the humor.

What I like about it is that he planned for better refs, taught the kids some better play, how to win by being more skilled, how to work within the guidelines of a better reffed game. His kids did learn a better game, they just didn't end up winning by it.

WHen he got there, he SAW better refs at the game before, and thought he was in business. But later he had to adjust, although not as he expected. He did adjust, though, and by working with what he was given, accepting it and using it ( as we always say the best coaches will do), he squeaked the game out of the L column.

I don't see that he liked it, or is crowing about his win. Just commenting on how his plan to be a better coach by following our advice backfired. Thus the humor.

Gotta admit, I'm surprised that I find this funny, too, I guess. My general theory is that it's better to "rise above it". I might have said he should have lost by playing a better game, rather than descending to win at all costs. What saves it for me is that he CHOSE his actions at each point based on his analysis of the situation, and it doesn't look like his emotions ruled him. It appears to me that he made a rational decision. And he did what we told him, after all, in adjusting to the refs he had, and using their calls and no-calls to his advantage. Aren't we a little flattered by that?

Yeah, he adjusted all right. He adjusted by getting his players to kick the sh!t out of the other team.

No, he sureashell didn't do what <b>WE</b> told him. I doubt very much that any official here with any shred of integrity would ever advise any coach to do what this clown did. You don't take advantage of inexperienced officials by using the disgusting tactics that he used. You don't teach the crap that he used to 5th. grade kids either.

Flattered? You can be flattered. Don't put me in that category.

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

hey, you should have written my OP
 

I think your summation is better than my ramble!

jurassic
 

Thanks for the support. :)

A few points. These are 5th grade boys. When we practice my number one task is to get them to stop wrestling each other. My wife who works in a middle school says this is what 5th grade boys do CONSTANTLY.

At our practices I've stopped having scrimmages, because the boys naturally devolve into sessions of pounding on each other. They are naturally inclined to behave this way. It has been my biggest challenge with them.

re: the officials in this game. These were not youth referees. These were adults who seem to have just come to watch the game. I made some comments to them early in the game about the fouling, but they weren't interested in communicating. I was never a dickhead with them by any measure.

My frustration is that after the work I had put in with the boys during the season, that our week 1 approach would be the go to strategy in our championship game.

read juulie's summation, she communicates better than me

Puh-leeze.

What his kids learned, if anything, is that talk is cheap and when it comes down to it playing outside the rules is just fine.

CA

My only response is that if it was as bad as you say, I would have called a timeout and found a gym administrator or someone in charge of the tournament to discuss the safety of the players. If a resolution couldn't be found, I would have no problem pulling my players and forfeiting the game. I would not put my players in that kind of situation, primarily for safety sake. There is nothing to be learned, for kids this age, in a game of this nature.

Again, this is assuming the picture you painted was more correct than not....

There was no safety issue.
 

They were just boys being boys. I would imagine this is exactly what would go on on any middle school playground when the boys are just left to their own devices. Helter skelter play. There was plenty of fouling and lots of violations, but all the boys were having fun. Crazed, zany, large-crowd-fueled lunacy.

I read Rainmaker's summation. For the record, I have about the same amount of respect for her summation as I have for yours. None.

Anybody that thinks that it's OK to go out and beat the crap out of fifth grade kids, no matter what the circumstances, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near those fifth grade kids imo. And taking advantage of inexperienced officials who are supposedly your peers is simply despicable, also imo.

The sad part is that you still can't figure out that what you did is wrong.

Enjoy your win, coach. Roll on the floor and laugh your head off. You certainly deserved the win from all of the coaching strategy that you used.

SMEngman had you pegged perfectly.

Sad.

The bottom line here is what you said in your OP which was that you instructed your kids to start fouling intentionally and that you should've done it earlier. In my opinion, that sort of attitude at that level disrespects the game of basketball and makes a travesty of the game. I'd be with you if you instructed your kids to be more aggressive and go for the steal, but telling them to foul intentionally makes a mockery of the game. Another thing, you start instructing 5th graders to foul intentionally like that, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit and a big can of worms. 5th graders don't know how to foul within the context of a game, you tell them to start fouling and a rugby game could break out as they go over the line. I remember when I was about that age and my coach told the team to make a strategic foul to stop the clock and one of the players on my team clotheslined the ball handler. Teach the game the right way and always respect the game, that's my only advice.