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-   -   6 players on the court (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/42201-6-players-court.html)

teachingball Sun Feb 24, 2008 07:30pm
6 players on the court
 
I need help understanding a call made yesterday:

Coming out after a timeout, Team A had 6 players on the court. Team A proceeded to score on the in bounds play. Referees then realize 6 players were on the court during the play and gave Team A a technical foul and that the points would not be removed from the score. Their explaination was that it was their fault and that they were sorry they didn't recognize the 6 players for Team A, but once the play started Team B had to live with the results.

(BTW - Team B coach was screaming they had 6 players on the court from the time the official handed the ball to Team A).


What is the proper call here?

bob jenkins Sun Feb 24, 2008 07:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
What is the proper call here?
Just what teh officials did -- a T for 6 players, but the rest of the play stands.

Note that if the officials had recognized the 6 players prior to the score, the results would be different.

just another ref Sun Feb 24, 2008 07:42pm
If somebody needs an explanation, just tell them that the infraction is penalized when discovered, and what happens before that is irrelevant. There is a logical reason for this. If anything significant happens with 6 on the floor, this pretty much means that the officials don't know when the 6th player appeared, or they would have made the call at that point.

teachingball Sun Feb 24, 2008 07:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
If somebody needs an explanation, just tell them that the infraction is [B]penalized when discovered,[B] and what happens before that is irrelevant. There is a logical reason for this. If anything significant happens with 6 on the floor, this pretty much means that the officials don't know when the 6th player appeared, or they would have made the call at that point.
Where can I find that rule? What area of the case book or rule book?

What if they had realized it before the basket was scored, but ball was in play?

What if they realized it before handing the ball in?

What if a foul occured during the play?

Camron Rust Sun Feb 24, 2008 08:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
Where can I find that rule? What area of the case book or rule book?

What if they had realized it before the basket was scored, but ball was in play?

What if they realized it before handing the ball in?

What if a foul occured during the play?
All rules regarding fouls and dead balls apply.

Before handing the ball in..no penalty...get the 6th off the floor....once it is in the thrower's hands...T.

All fouls count normally. If the shot is released before it is discovered it counts.

teachingball Sun Feb 24, 2008 08:32pm
Thanks,

Sick ruling though. Wouldn't think a team with an unfair advantage could benefit in any way.

just another ref Sun Feb 24, 2008 08:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
Thanks,

Sick ruling though. Wouldn't think a team with an unfair advantage could benefit in any way.

If you want to look at it that way, there are a lot of plays that a team can make that benefit that team and give them an advantage..................as long as they don't get caught. 6 players on the court, I would say, is virtually always done by accident, and, as stated earlier, is penalized immediately when discovered. You can't take the points off the board because you can't be sure when the extra player came on the floor.

teachingball Sun Feb 24, 2008 09:25pm
Is it the referee's responsibility to know how many players are on the court after timeouts or substitutions?

I'm not a referee, but I would think (1st problem) that the team committing the violation should not benefit from anything during that play.

Advantage/Disadvantage. Who gained an advantage while commitiing a violation of the rules. It shouldn't matter when the violation was recognized, anybody can see that having 6 players on the floor during a play is against the rules and therefore, the team violating the rule should not benefit in any way. If a ref notices after a team has scored, it's not rocket science, they had an illegal advantage. All the players are right in front of the officials. I could understand if there were players lingering around the bench area. Just because the ref's did not recognize (or just ignored) it until after the made basket shouldn't give them an out. There should be a correctable solution that does not give the violating team an advantage.


I understand the ruling, I just don't agree with it.

BillyMac Sun Feb 24, 2008 09:39pm
Not A Correctable Error ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
If a ref notices after a team has scored, it's not rocket science, they had an illegal advantage. Just because the ref's did not recognize (or just ignored) it until after the made basket shouldn't give them an out. There should be a correctable solution that does not give the violating team an advantage.
1) In this situation, the six players were noticed after the score. Without the benefit of videotape, how could the officials know that there were six on the court before the score? The NFHS does not, at this time, allow officials to use videotape.

2) I don't know of a single official, on my local board of 280 officials, who would ignore a sixth player.

3) There is a correctable solution in place already. The team with six players is penalized with a team foul that counts toward the bonus and double bonus. The disadvantaged team is allowed to select their best shooter, even if on the bench, and have him, or her, take two fifteen foot shots with no defenders anywhere near. The disadvantaged team, even if they make the last foul shot will get the ball back at the division line, whereas in almost all other cases, after a made foul shot, the opposing team gets the ball back, and is allowed to run the endline.

Jurassic Referee Sun Feb 24, 2008 09:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
Where can I find that rule? What area of the case book or rule book?
NFHS rule 10-1-6. It states "Penalized if discovered while being violated". Until discovered---> no penalty.

Jurassic Referee Sun Feb 24, 2008 09:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
I understand the ruling, I just don't agree with it.
Whether you agree with it doesn't matter. Whether any or all of us happen to agree with you also doesn't matter either. Good or bad, it's a rule and the officials have to enforce it by the language of that rule.

just another ref Sun Feb 24, 2008 09:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
There should be a correctable solution that does not give the violating team an advantage.

Fair enough. Rewrite the rule here for us in a way that you think would be better and we'll take a look at it.

Camron Rust Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Whether you agree with it doesn't matter. Whether any or all of us happen to agree with you also doesn't matter either. Good or bad, it's a rule and the officials have to enforce it by the language of that rule.
To be fair, I think he didn't mean to imply he wouldn't call it correctly. By "I don't agree with it" I think he meant he doesn't agree with the reasoning or philosophy of it....which is certainly within the rights of anyone of us.

Camron Rust Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachingball
Is it the referee's responsibility to know how many players are on the court after timeouts or substitutions?

I'm not a referee, but I would think (1st problem) that the team committing the violation should not benefit from anything during that play.

Advantage/Disadvantage. Who gained an advantage while commitiing a violation of the rules. It shouldn't matter when the violation was recognized, anybody can see that having 6 players on the floor during a play is against the rules and therefore, the team violating the rule should not benefit in any way. If a ref notices after a team has scored, it's not rocket science, they had an illegal advantage. All the players are right in front of the officials. I could understand if there were players lingering around the bench area. Just because the ref's did not recognize (or just ignored) it until after the made basket shouldn't give them an out. There should be a correctable solution that does not give the violating team an advantage.


I understand the ruling, I just don't agree with it.
Imagine for a moment that play had continued for 3-4 minutes since the last whistle at which time the 6th player was discovered. (Sure it's a stretch, but imagine it for the purpose of demonstration). In that time, each team scores several baskets. For which, if any, of the baskets was the extra player in the game? All of them, 3 of them, none of them?? If you know is was more than 0, you would hav blown the whistle at that time. You can't assume they were there...they may not have been. They may have come onto the court after the last basket.

rainmaker Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:05am
Also, if you really thought someone had planned this, and done it on purpose, but they still managed to score before you discovered it, you could make a more severe penalty, right? More severe than just a team T? But the score would still stand?


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