6 players on the court
 

I need help understanding a call made yesterday:

Coming out after a timeout, Team A had 6 players on the court. Team A proceeded to score on the in bounds play. Referees then realize 6 players were on the court during the play and gave Team A a technical foul and that the points would not be removed from the score. Their explaination was that it was their fault and that they were sorry they didn't recognize the 6 players for Team A, but once the play started Team B had to live with the results.

(BTW - Team B coach was screaming they had 6 players on the court from the time the official handed the ball to Team A).


What is the proper call here?

Just what teh officials did -- a T for 6 players, but the rest of the play stands.

Note that if the officials had recognized the 6 players prior to the score, the results would be different.

If somebody needs an explanation, just tell them that the infraction is penalized when discovered, and what happens before that is irrelevant. There is a logical reason for this. If anything significant happens with 6 on the floor, this pretty much means that the officials don't know when the 6th player appeared, or they would have made the call at that point.

Where can I find that rule? What area of the case book or rule book?

What if they had realized it before the basket was scored, but ball was in play?

What if they realized it before handing the ball in?

What if a foul occured during the play?

All rules regarding fouls and dead balls apply.

Before handing the ball in..no penalty...get the 6th off the floor....once it is in the thrower's hands...T.

All fouls count normally. If the shot is released before it is discovered it counts.

Thanks,

Sick ruling though. Wouldn't think a team with an unfair advantage could benefit in any way.

If you want to look at it that way, there are a lot of plays that a team can make that benefit that team and give them an advantage..................as long as they don't get caught. 6 players on the court, I would say, is virtually always done by accident, and, as stated earlier, is penalized immediately when discovered. You can't take the points off the board because you can't be sure when the extra player came on the floor.

Is it the referee's responsibility to know how many players are on the court after timeouts or substitutions?

I'm not a referee, but I would think (1st problem) that the team committing the violation should not benefit from anything during that play.

Advantage/Disadvantage. Who gained an advantage while commitiing a violation of the rules. It shouldn't matter when the violation was recognized, anybody can see that having 6 players on the floor during a play is against the rules and therefore, the team violating the rule should not benefit in any way. If a ref notices after a team has scored, it's not rocket science, they had an illegal advantage. All the players are right in front of the officials. I could understand if there were players lingering around the bench area. Just because the ref's did not recognize (or just ignored) it until after the made basket shouldn't give them an out. There should be a correctable solution that does not give the violating team an advantage.


I understand the ruling, I just don't agree with it.

Not A Correctable Error ...
 

1) In this situation, the six players were noticed after the score. Without the benefit of videotape, how could the officials know that there were six on the court before the score? The NFHS does not, at this time, allow officials to use videotape.

2) I don't know of a single official, on my local board of 280 officials, who would ignore a sixth player.

3) There is a correctable solution in place already. The team with six players is penalized with a team foul that counts toward the bonus and double bonus. The disadvantaged team is allowed to select their best shooter, even if on the bench, and have him, or her, take two fifteen foot shots with no defenders anywhere near. The disadvantaged team, even if they make the last foul shot will get the ball back at the division line, whereas in almost all other cases, after a made foul shot, the opposing team gets the ball back, and is allowed to run the endline.

NFHS rule 10-1-6. It states "Penalized if discovered while being violated". Until discovered---> no penalty.

Whether you agree with it doesn't matter. Whether any or all of us happen to agree with you also doesn't matter either. Good or bad, it's a rule and the officials have to enforce it by the language of that rule.

Fair enough. Rewrite the rule here for us in a way that you think would be better and we'll take a look at it.

To be fair, I think he didn't mean to imply he wouldn't call it correctly. By "I don't agree with it" I think he meant he doesn't agree with the reasoning or philosophy of it....which is certainly within the rights of anyone of us.

Imagine for a moment that play had continued for 3-4 minutes since the last whistle at which time the 6th player was discovered. (Sure it's a stretch, but imagine it for the purpose of demonstration). In that time, each team scores several baskets. For which, if any, of the baskets was the extra player in the game? All of them, 3 of them, none of them?? If you know is was more than 0, you would hav blown the whistle at that time. You can't assume they were there...they may not have been. They may have come onto the court after the last basket.

Also, if you really thought someone had planned this, and done it on purpose, but they still managed to score before you discovered it, you could make a more severe penalty, right? More severe than just a team T? But the score would still stand?

The last thing I want to do is get into a debate about the rules, for me that's a losing cause. Carve me up guys!

This is what I found I thought was interesting:

YMCA RULES MANUAL
Disallowed Baskets
Examples of disallowed baskets are as follows:
a) When the whistle blows before the shooter releases the ball
b) When a player scores on an inbound pass
c) When the shooting team steps into the lane prior to the release of a free
throw (grades 6-9)
d) Offensive fouls
e) When the ball touches anything out of play
f) When there are too many players on the court


I'm just saying, what does this rule protect, what has happened in the past to make this an uncorrectable call? Why can't this be a judgement situation. Most fouls are judgement calls. We trust the Ref's to be able to make those calls, to me this should be a judgement call after conferring with their partner and considering the situation, then make their call, instead of referring to 10-1-6.


I can only go from the online rule book:
http://nfhs.eofficials.com/nfhs/case...=art&bid=39488

How does this case book situation have anything to do with the above situation. This is an end of the game scenario. End of the game is a lot different. Last play of the game. Not all situations are the same. But there is what makes sense.


PENTALTY: (Art. 6) Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Is there more to this somewhere. How can I derive " Results of any play before recognizing 6 players on the court, i.e. (fouls or scores) can not be correctable." out of that.


BillyMac

1) Funny, 2 officials, (1 on baseline, 1 at division line handing the ball), all players in clear view of both officials. After the score they "recognize" 6 on the floor.

After the timeout, if I as a referee did not count the players before start of play, and the opposing coach is yelling they have six players on the court, (Same coach who if he whispers "I can't believe he made that call" you can hear him), and right after they score I "realize" they did have 6 on the court, I have an out with 10-1-6. Oops, my bad.

2) Sorry, was just trying to be funny. I have alot of respect for good officials who take pride in what their doing.

3)"The disadvantaged team is allowed to select their best shooter, even if on the bench, and have him, or her, take two fifteen foot shots with no defenders anywhere near."

Sounds easy. Now all Team B needs to do is sink 2 FT with all eyes on him, just to get the ball back, otherwise they get the worst of it. A situation Team B did not create. They should actually penalize the offending team. Score disallowed because Team A had too many players on the court. Penalty: 2 FT and ball back at the division line. As a coach I know it is my fault if I have more than 5 players on the court. How can I argue that I didn't have an unfair advantage. Less arguements. Fair.

What could possibly happen to make you think this? And what did you have in mind for a more severe penalty? And this is backed up by what rule?

So you can't call continuation in any way in Y ball? I don't like that at all. It's contrary to logic.

Different situation. First, I'd do some drug testing of both coaching staff's, I have never been involved with a too many players on the court situation that would last more than 1 play. Either coach is yelling "too many players" or the other is telling their player to get off the court. Stretch? Too extreme of an example.

I'll try one more time. The officials did not realize the team had 6 on the floor when the basket was made, or they would have made the call before the basket was made. When a team has 6 players on the court, it is not always because too many came out after the timeout. A1 looks up from the bench and mistakenly counts 4 players. He realizes (incorrectly) that he should be in the game. He jumps up and runs onto the floor. Officials should make a habit of counting the number of players after the timeout, but, like anything else, this can be overlooked or a mistake can be made. When the official does see 6 on the floor, he will have no way of knowing when the extra player appeared.

Wow, sorry Ref.

I thought it was already established that I understand the ruling, I just don't agree with it, and I was just pointing out, what I feel is a rule that doesn't seem right. Doesn't make sense. You don't see my point?

I'm no longer asking the original question, but discussing the topic.

Okay, I see your point. My point is you have not suggested an alternative to the rule as written.

Yeah but....

Why is he/she debating it with us? We didn't write the rule. I'd be more receptive to a statement like "I would think refs would be extremely diligent in ensuring 6 players aren't on the court b/c a team could get screwed."

This scenario happened Friday night (Feb 22) in a Class 5A game in the first round of the louisiana boys state playoffs. I went to the HL Bourgeois (Houma, LA) vs Southwood (Shreveport, LA) game as a spectator and here is the set up:

Three man crew (Baton Rouge, LA Association) Reff (R1) is a very senior guy, Umpire 1 (U1) is another senior guy and the third guy (U2) is a 2nd or 3rd year probably working his first Boys Playoff Game.

Southwood has the ball on their own baseline the inbounds spot is on the same side of their court as their bench, score is HL Bourgeois 68, Southwood 66, 1:36 left in the fourth. SW calls :30sec timeout, U2 administers TO at table, R1 has ball on the inbounds spot, U1 takes position on opposite lane during TO. Kid from SW checks in before the first horn, U2 acknowledges him. First horn sounds, SW and HLB take the floor, all ten players mingle and pass through U2 by the table. U2 counts 10 players then crosses the court to the C position, U1 comes up the floor to the trail in front of the table. As U2 leaves the table side, a kid from SW comes onto the court from the SW bench into the traffic of players heading to the baseline for the inbounds. U1/U2 do not see him and R1 is blocked by the players. SW sets up for their inbounds play, R1 looks at his crew, everything appears to be in order, R1 hands the SW player the ball and begins his count. the HLB coach is screaming 6 men on the court, the crowd picks it up and R1 blows his whistle. R1 and U1 count the players, realize that 6 SW players are on the court and then go to the table to confer. They rule official's correctable error, and because the ball was not inbounded, SW is allowed to take the extra man off and the HLB coach goes nuts because the ball was handed to SW for the inbounds and should have been considered "live." The R1 denies the HLB claim and the game is eventually won by HL Bourgeois, 75-68

It was a very crazy sequence of events

HLB HC is correct in stating ball had become "live" (at disposal of thrower-in).

And never, never, as an official, say "it's my fault they had 6 players, coach."

And they don't have to live with the results once play has started. They have to live with the results once the play has been completed.