Not original question I know.
 

Guys first I am not AARef from this other board. Second I did change the question a bit to emphasize my point. The point is on a rebound Player taps ball from the air(never holding it), turns now taps it again, slowly reduces the tap/slap bat to a back and forth motion between hand and starts running down the court, spins around opponent while tapping back and forth, backs into the lane while tapping, by now you have an atrocity of the game. Both Bktballref and Jurassic ref said they have nothing on this. I realize I over emphasized the question. The point is they have nothing. Whether it is semantics or not this is clearly a violation and not the intent of the rule. I can not believe how they could let this go and have nothing. This is not what Dennis Rodman did. I know the difference. I would use judgement and know it may not be the first tap.(definitely not) nor the second, but at somepoint during the spin move to the basket I have traveling. This is called judgement and intent of the rules. Does this happen often, NO, could this happen, YES. If it does then you have to use common sense on how you are going to handle it and that would be by calling traveling.

So, again, I ask you.....
 

A player can bat a rebound or pass into the air one time without establishing player control. Do we agree?

A player can bat the ball into the air a second time without establishing player control. Do we agree?

In your mind, how many times does he have to bat the ball before he establishes player control? Is there a magical number?

The Drag
 

No magical number, use common sense.

I have come up with the "drag.":

The rules are inadequate to cover this situation; however, to maintain the spirit and intent of the rules, I have come up with a new term: the "drag."

Definition: PLAYER CONTROL is holding or dribbling [or dragging] a live ball while in-bounds.

My Definition: DRAGGING is purposeful and controlled tossing, batting, or setting the ball away from the body and then re-contacting the ball.

DRAGGING is equivalent to HOLDING the ball for the purposes of the rules. If the pivot is moved while DRAGGING then the player has traveled.

If dragging were a loss of player control, then a stationary player could avoid a 5 second closely guarded count by simply tossing the ball from hand to hand.

CONFIRMATION

Slider is zimp and zimp is Slider.

Re: The Drag
 

While I agree this should be a violation, please tell me that you're not going to start using this in your games!!

Coach: How was that a travel?
Slider: He dragged the ball, coach.
C: Dragged the ball? What f*#&ing rule is that?
S: 11-2 in my rulebook.

That explains a lot.

Of course, it took me until 2 or 3 months ago to realize that TH and BktBallRef are one and the same. (I've been posting on both forums for about 2 1/2 years.)

Additional closing arguments will be over there.
mick

No magic number
 

I will use my judgement on when I think the player has control of the ball, and it could be while he is still tapping it if he is running down the court doing this and spinning around opponents.

I will use common sense and rule 2-3 since this play is not described in the rules or case.

Just as I determine advantage disadvantage on a foul. It is my judgement.

Wow! :D

As I said earlier this evening on the "other" discussion board. I think that BktBallRef (TH) has done an excellent job of presenting the rules and casebook plays that cover the situation. And I agree with everything he has said. He makes all of the same points that I would have made. But I think that we both agree that we personally would not make the call unless we actually saw the play. I have this gut feeling the the play in the original posting is one of those one in ten million plays.

Thanks Mark. That's what I've said all along. This is a play that you'll never see. Thoeretically, it is possible that it could happen and by rule, it would be legal. As officials, we can't go throwing around 2-3 because we don't like the way a play looks.

Realistically, if you judge that the ball has been held by the player who is batting the ball, then you can establish PC. But we can't just ignore the rules, invoke 2-3 and say that it traveling. A player who has not had control of the ball cannot travel.

I'm done.

Yup,finally confirmed!:D

Incredible
 

Making a very simple question difficult. No one said we are just throwing around rule 2-3 anytime we want to. No one said we are going to ignore any rules. Now you are saying things that have not been said.

Is a player in control of a ball when he is spinning it on his finger. I say yes, but he is not holding or dribbling.... Again it goes back to judgement, every word for control can not be established. Back to Bob statement which you agreed with, "hand under ball he has control", I have no problem with this. But he never said he was holding the ball. Only that he felt that hand under ball established control. That is all I have been saying all along. At some point in tapping ball back and forth from left to right hand and I am going to say the player has established control of the ball and after that it will be traveling. What is the difference?

This was said 30 posts ago. That I felt the player has established control. The argument was he has to be holding or dribbling. You just agreed that hand under ball establishes control. Bob Jenkins never said he was holding it, never siad the ball came to rest. Again this is just semantics and making a ridiculously easy play difficult. Could this play ever happen... YES. When it does you are going to at some point say the player has established control and call traveling.. RIGHT? Whether we have to see it or not is a mute point. At some point is a player does this you are going to call traveling. Why is this so difficult to say?Again this is just common sense....

[Edited by Self on Feb 25th, 2002 at 06:22 AM]

I came to this same conclusion about 3 or 4 weeks ago when Slider came up with another of his "drag"-type solutions. Inventive, I give him credit for that! :)

By the way, I knew you were TH all along. ;)

Chuck

Re: Incredible
 

Self,if you've got last year's rulebook,look up the POE on "palming".Note the sentence--Quote-"the key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has come to rest(4-15-4B)"-Unqoute.If the ball comes to rest,then the dribbling and travelling rules are now applicable.If it doesn't come to rest,you don't apply them.If the hand comes under the ball,of course you got the dribbler holding the ball at rest.Otherwise,you can never call palming/carrying the ball.Same concept is used in the other sitch.If the ball comes to rest in the hand,you now have player control.If it doesn't come to rest,NO player control.It's not semantics.It's written in the rules,and not 2-3 either.
Btw,that was my last gasp on this one.Have fun!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 25th, 2002 at 08:47 AM]