6 Men on the Floor
 

I saw this in a high school game last night.

Ball was inbounded after a substitution. Offense dribbled to about halfcourt when the defensive coach mentioned to the officials that the offense had 6 players on the floor. No technical was called. Instead, the officials let the 6th player leave, started the play over and went on.

Was that the proper way to handle it or should a T have been called? If the official says "my mistake" does that negate the T? I thought it was odd.

It's a team technical foul. No mercy. There is no rules justification to do what they did.

Should have been a T.

I saw a Big South game on TV the other night. Visiting team player turns his ankle during a scrum which leads to a dead ball. Player is still struggling to get up at the same time multiple subs are coming in game, including one for injured player.

While injured player is still in front court the administering official allows throw-in. The player limps past the official right in front of the table during the live ball and the official, in an irritated manner, kinda pushes (or guides with his forearm) the player to get out of the way.

While the refs should have counted players prior to inbounding the ball, I agree with....

I had my more favorite call Saturday.....coach calls sub off the bench and the 13 yr old just runs onto the court in the middle of the play. TWEET! T. Coach is flabbergasted...... :)

Shame on the officials twice:

- First for allowing the ball to be put in play with 6 people on the court
- Second for not calling the T

When I wave in subs, I always keep my hand raised (open palm) to let my partner know I'm not ready for a live ball yet. I take a quick count of the number of players, and when I have 10...5 from each team...not 6 and 4 :), I lower my hand, and we're ready to continue play.

I had a similar situation a few years ago. It was during a kids rec league game, we had a T for a player not being listed in the official book. Turns out that the team had 11 players on the bench, but only 10 listed. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I think it's safe to say that most people (again, not everyone), don't count the number of players for rec league ball. I always do for high school, but not youth league stuff. Anyway, I tell the coach we're going to have a T on his team for a player not listed. He says to me, "But aren't you supposed to verify the number of players prior to the start?" I told him "Yes coach I am...but as the head coach you're the one still ultimately responsible for getting all of your players listed in the book." Fortunately he agreed and left it at that. Shame on me for not counting the players, but we still ended up giving the T, as should have been done here with the 6 players on the court.

I find that there is a much greater liklihood of having six players on the floor in youth rec league than in HS ball. Why would you not count players in rec ball? If nothing else it would maintain keep the habit of counting for when it's "important".

I should've been more specific...I always count the number players on the court during a game at any level I officiate. I was referring to counting the number of players on each team, prior to the start of the game, to verify that they match the number of players in the scorebook. Again, I always do this in high school, but rarely for rec ball.

You're supposed to verify the number of players on each team prior to the start?:confused:

I didn't know that. Where can I find that in the rules?

What if a player is a little late getting there? Or a player is in the dressing room having a dump? Does your plan go down the dumper then too?

Let the scorer do his job.

Don't have my rule book in front of me to cite a rule, but doesn't everybody count the number of players prior to start and verify that the teams have at least that number of players in the book? I always assumed that was one of our pre-game responsibilities by rule. It helps to avoid, but doesn't totally prevent, the situation I got into where we had an administrative T for not having a player listed...

"Let the scorer do his job" By this, do you mean do their job by adding the player to the book when they (the player) arrive? If so, this is a T. A coach should always be aware of the team he his putting forth that day. If he knows a kid is gonna be late, then it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game, even though they're not there yet.

There is no penalty for having a player listed in the book who does not play, nor does that player even have to be present that day. But adding a player to the book, who is not listed, comes at the expense of a T.

6 on floor - 0 on bench
 

A number of years ago I was coaching my daughters middle school game. I sent my only sub to the table to report. Dead ball happens, other coach calls timeout. Of course, when the time out ends and the ball is put in play, I sit back down on the bench only to realize I am all alone, and I'm out of timeouts.

The girls were up and down the floor two times before I had one of my girls close enough to the bench to tell her to get off the floor and onto the bench.

As soon as she sat down, I caught the eye of one of the officials who just realized what had happened. She gave me a wink and told me I got away with one-she didn't actually see the 6 girls on the floor.
:D

I do? What am I missing here?

I never counted the players pre-game in my life. It's the team's job to supply a correct roster and starters. It's the scorer's job to enter the team rosters and starting lineups as given into the book. It's the officials job to react <b>if</b> either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

If somebody screws up pre-game, it ain't the officials' fault. It's also nonsense imo to place any blame at all for a pre-game screw-up on the officials.

That was my point. If you're counting the players, then how can you account for any players that are late, in the dressing room, etc.? :confused:

Now I'm interested/confused.

Jurassic, so do you just wait for a book keeping error to be brought to your attention?

Man, I always count pre-game.

Yes.

And if one does get brought to my attention, I don't blame myself either.

You can't...As I said previously, checking the book doesn't totally eliminate the possibility of a player not being listed, but this is good preventative officiating at the very least.

I wish I had my rule book with me, because I could swear it's in there. I'm looking all over the web for an online rule book...anybody know a site that hosts one?

What can you do about it before the game anyway? When you check the book at 10:00, if a player isn't listed what difference does it make? They can't change the book right then without a T. If they don't change the book then, you penalize it when that player checks into the game - again, the same whether you count or not.

I know officials who count and I know officials who don't. I did when I started because other officials I was with did. Now I don't, because I just don't really care to add anything else to the process, and I finally figured out that it didn't matter whether the number of players matched.

At least here, it's SOP. Call it preventive officiating. And, while it can't repvent all problems, it can prevent some. :shrug:

Who's placing blame? Why does counting the players prior to the 10 minute mark imply the officials have assumed any blame?

I bet you do, or did..

Officials Manual : Pre-game duties

2-whistle Referee duty 9 Verify number of team members and starters.
3-whistle U1 and U2 duty 5. Home and visitor Verification.

So, just how many times have you had a T for a bad book?

Same here. Never have prevented a problem though. The most common thing is more numbers in book then players.

Also a unwritten rule is that it's the officials fault if there is a book problem.

Also a unwritten rule is that it's the officials fault if there is a book problem.

Amen.

Varsity G. We have the coaches sign/initial the official scorebook that names, numbers and starters are correct for their team.

3 minutes in, horn sounds. Incorrect number in the book. Coach tries to blame us. Sorry, here comes the T.

What unwritten rule is there that book problems are the officials fault? I've never heard that one.

6 players on the court? Sure. Book problem - definitely not.

Some tournaments that I do, the sheets are already filled out by a site convenor that likes to be organized. In these cases, I have the coach verify the lineup and make any changes needed.

I agree it is a T..... Question though, this came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench. They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

Thanks, Mick. I was pretty sure that was in there (but I loaned out my officials manual).

In my mind, any kind of administrive errors that can reasonably be prevented should be. Who really wants to start a game with a T? But it's not the officials' fault if the book is wrong.

I do it....and have prevented a T about once a year.

I agree, but.. the refs should also have been slapped upside the head for failing to notice before hand.

In general, it is a T. There have been 1-2 cases where I've not called it. One that comes to mind is when, after a substitution, a 6th player thought they should be on the floor and ran off the bench. In this particular game, his team was getting crushed (30-40 point spread) and it was late in the 4th. I merely blew the whistle, got the 6th player off the court, and continued. The opposing coach, who had been a gentleman all evening, merely asked "That'd be a T in a closer game, right?". To which I responded, "Absolutely". By the book, No? The right call? Yes. Noone had any interest in rubbing salt in the wounds of the losing team.

One time I had a game in which a team came out of a timeout with six men on the floor. That was really weird, mostly because it was a women's game. :p

I beleive that the coach is responsible for providing a correct roster prior to the 10 minute mark -- not for entering it into the book.

So, if the coach provides a complete and accurate roster, and the scorer enters it in the book INCORRECTLY, you are going to penalize that team for the scorer's mistake?



Having a dump? Or leaving a dump? :D

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.

Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

This isn't correct, ma ref. The coach is only responsible for supplying a correct list of players and starters prior to the 10 minute mark. It is not the coach's responsibility to check the scorers entries. That's why whenever there is a mistake in the book, you need to ask what was supplied to the scorer by the coach (that may be the book, for the home team, or the visitor's book for the visiting team).

Penalizing a team because the scorer screwed up is simply wrong. It is just a bookkeeping error.

You are completely wrong on this ma_ref. Rule 10-1-1: Art. 1... Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

There is NOTHING in the rulebook ANYWHERE saying that the head coach is responsible for verifying what is entered in the scorebook.

You still need to get help.

JR said "react". I read "make it right".
Only you suggested penalizing a team.

If I am the R, prior to the game, I always take the official book, count the players listed, count the players on the court to see if they match, and then hand the book to each coach and have them look at it and OK it. It's my part of preventive officiating.

Are you sure it wasn't the East German swim team?

I did not suggest any such thing. I simply asked a question.

I don't have my rule book handy, but doesn't six players have to penlized when discovered while the ball is live? :confused:

Absolutely correct, CR.

Come to think of it........ http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/think.gif

NFHS 10-1-6 A team shall not...have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Penalty: Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Have a look at 10.1.6 as well.

IAABO Refresher Exam ???
 

I don't have time to get out my old IAABO Refresher Exams, but about three years ago, there was a question about a player who missed the bus, and was coming late, having his name, and number, written in the book. According to IAABO, not sure about NFHS, this player's name was not allowed to be written in the book. I got the question wrong. Do any IAABO members remember this stupid question?

When I was coaching, I wrote in all the names and numbers or all 14 of my players,, in numerical order, in the book for every game, even if they were sick, injured, etc. It made it easier to copy the list from game to game.

On our local board, we're told to count the players warming up, and when the referee checks the book, he, or she, makes sure that there are an equal number of players in the book, or more players in the book than are on the floor. If there are less, he, or she, tries to figure out the problem, before the 10 minute mark.

(A memory peaked) :
A hunert years ago, 1965, I spent three days away from high school to take a physical for a university. I showed up during warm-ups, and though I didn't start, I did get to play. :cool:

My approval for playing eligibilty, eventhough I missed three days, was that I had to use 3 of my 5 skip slips that I earned for not missing a day in school since the 5th grade. :)

Holy cow. Watch out Padgett -- with lines like this, he's trying to steal your thunder.

I'm older.
Padgett's better looking.
I can cook.
Padgett's better looking.

Wow. Not one day missed even though you had to trudge 6 miles through hip deep snow every single day uphill both ways.

You are my hero. :cool:

I remember that and I remember disagreeing strongly with it.

I also know a few D-I refs who have insisted that the number in the book equal the number they see out on the court during warm-ups. Do any of you NCAA guys know if this was a directive from above or just a few guys/gals doing their own thing?

FWIW, all I care about is that the number of players in the book is >= the number of players I see warming up.

Big deal. I trudged 10 miles and backwards! :eek:

See for yourself. This is me.

http://entimg.msn.com/i/gal/TomCruis...031408_400.jpg

BTW - I'm not so sure Mick's older. I was also a HS senior in 1965, although I graduated when I was 16.

:) I only missed a 1/2-day in 5th grade for comfirmation practice.

Let's say you don't check the book pre-game and in the second quarter a player enters who is not in the official book. The bookkeeper alerts you to the fact.

Head coach says well it should be you copied it wrong. Table says, no I didn't you just added it.


Then what??

Just make it right with the information you have:

• Have bookkeeper show you the lineup handed in;
• See if the books match;
• Check if sequence matches;
• Eventhough the home book is supposed to be official, determine if the bookkeepers equal;
• penalize, or not, as necessary;
• Get the game going.

Mea culpa. I scoured my rule book last night but couldn't find a specific rule stating that the head coach is responsible for the accuracy of their roster in the official book. The closest thing I could find was a list of scorer's duties which included having the coach sign the book prior to the start. I guess it's just so standard around here, that I had it in my mind it was a written rule. The scenario above is precisely why I think it *would* be good to have the coach (or someone they choose to designate) verify the roster. It would eliminate the potential my-word-versus-yours between the scorer and coach.

Regarding the above situation though...by rule I'd say that if the official scorer does not believe they have made any sort of error while entering the names in the book, then I'm thinking we have an administrative T against that team. 2 shots and the ball for the other team.

Idiotic IAABO Refresher Exam Question ...
 

I went down to my underground vault, 300 feet down, crossed the moat filled with piranas and snapping turtles, avoided the land mines, a guillotine, knife-throwing wild Indians, the gorilla, and a pit of quicksand, and found my old IAABO Refresher Exams. Here's the second most stupid question ever on an IAABO Refresher Exam, and remember this is an IAABO exam, which is supposed to follow NFHS rules, but I never heard of this rule:

2005-06 IAABO Refresher Exam Question #73: Squad member number 45 misses the bus and is not present at the time the squads list and starting line-up must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup the referee counts eleven team members for Team A but while checking the book Team A has twelve members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the bookeven if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?
Answer: Yes. 3-2-1, and 4-34-4

As I said in a previous post, despite this answer, on our local board, we're told to count the players warming up, and when the referee checks the book, he, or she, makes sure that there are an equal number of players in the book, or more players in the book than are on the floor. If there are less, he, or she, tries to figure out the problem, before the 10 minute mark.

Can someone answer this concerning NFHS Rules? I saw this happen earlier this season. The officials got together and decided that they could not call a T since they werent 100% sure that the one team had six players on the court and plus they said that in order for it to be a T they had to catch it during a live ball situation. Were they correct?

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than 5 members participating simultaneously.

PENALTY: Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Live ball not specified. When is a player considered to be participating? Preparing for a throw in, players jockeying for position, I would consider that to be participation. Coach sees the problem, requests time out, you count six heading off the court, I have no problem with making the call then, others may disagree.

One thing I know. Nothing sends a buzz through the crowd any better than 6 on the court.

Think about it this way - if you can penalize this during a dead ball, then what about when you beckon a sub on the floor, and the other player takes their time getting off the floor - would you penalize that team for having 6 players on the court? Of course not, even though, by rule, the sub becomes a player the moment they are beckoned on the court. But they aren't "participating" at that moment.

I would think once the TO is called, there is even less basis for saying they are "participating". So, if the coach gets the TO granted, you have not "discovered while being violated" - you discovered it after the fact, therefore, too late to penalize.

bump......would love to have more opinions on this one....seems to be a 2 way street. Damned if you do damed if you dont?