time put back on the clock??
 

Okay had a BV game last night. I know the situation wasn't handled correctly, but I want to get it right next time. Team A is fouled during a shot, the basket counts, so we're going to shoot the "and 1" free throw. The made basket puts team A up by 1 point. There is 6 secs to go on the clock (the clock does not have tenths of a second on the score board) (Both teams are in the double bonus.)

A1 misses the "and 1" free throw, B1 grabs the rebound and dribbles the length of the floor, as B1 is dribbling down the floor, A2 literally runs over B1 and knocks him to the ground. My partner Trail (referee) calls a common foul, the whistle sounds "tweet", the horn goes off "Buzzz". We have a conference.

Neither myself or my 2 partners have definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock when the whistle sounded, because there is no tenths on the clock, as soon as I heard the whistle I look up, and the clock shows 0:00 then "buzz" goes the horn. We line up B1 to shoot two shots with no one lined up along the lane, and no time on the clock, he drains both free throws. Team B wins by 1.

That's what should have happened right????

Now here is where I know my partner (Referee and the Trail who called the common foul) messes up...

Myself and U2 are running off the floor. After B1 makes his 2nd free throw. Game should be over. When we hear "Tweet Tweet Tweet" The Referee calls us over and says he's putting .2 seconds on the clock, because the the score/time keeper says on his score board control box at the table there is tenths of seconds, and when the whistle sounded there was .2 seconds left. But he couldn't stop the clock that fast.

Well Crap I say, we shot the double bonus free throws with neither team lined up. What if he'd missed the 2nd freethrow. The Referee says, he made both free throws. Give A the ball OOB under B's basket with the freedom to move and .2 on the timer's box. A throws the ball full court deflected game over.

What should have been done?

I think there's a rule somewhere that says that if the timer's response to a situation is within a certain allowable amount, you don't put time back on the clock just to make up for reaction time. I can't find a cite at the moment, but I'll keep looking. BUt I think you should NOT have put any time back on the clock.

I think 5-6-2 exception 3 is the applicable rule.

.3 is the least amount of time remaining where a player can get a tap off.

Shoot the freethrows with the lane cleared (only if it will affect outcome of the game).

You can't add time onto the clock unless you have definite knowledge.

Julie, I think you're talking about lag time, that was deleted from the rulebook either last year or the year before.

Rules to back this up?

Doesn't the timer's knowledge amount to "definite" knowledge?

I'm trying to understand what you are saying? I know the rule about .3 secs, but what does that have to do with this situation. I'm just trying to see what you mean?

Yes.

Me too, my badd.
It is .3 or less

There are still a few schools left, @ least around our way, that doesn't have tenths on the clock. Its imperative @ these schools to see if they do have tenths that show on the timing console. If they do, its wise to implore the timer in the last second of a period to help if there happens to be a timing issue.

In the OP's play I really don't have a problem with putting .2 back on the clock if the timer is positive that he/she seen it on the console when the whistle blew.

Technically if the whistle was before the horn, the foul was before the whistle, so it stands to reason that their should be some time on the clock. Since the tenths doesn't show on the clock then your only way of getting definitive knowledge would be by the timer who can see tenths on the console.

So then why don't you think the FTs should have been shot with .2 seconds & players lined up as normal?

btw, I'm with Gimlet but will take it a step further. The R in this game screwed it up because he waited until after the FTs to make his ruling. He should have resolved the timing issue prior to the FTs.

Okay here is my question, We shot the 2 free throws with the lane cleared under the impression that no time existed on the clock. Then after the two made baskets, the timer tells the Referee there was .2 secs left on his (timer's) score board control box. What do we do then. There is Definite knowledge by the timer that .2 secs existed.

Do we just give it to team A for the throw in with .2 secs,
Or
Do we cancel the free throws B just made, line the guys up, and shoot two more?

That's where I get confused...

I agree totally with this. I bet though that until this situation presented itself the "R" or the "U" didn't have any idea that the console displayed tenths.

The best time for the "R" to head this type of a problem off would be in the pre game table conference. This would be the time to fin out if the clock shows tenths, if it doesn't then does the console?

Put .2 on the clock and go POI. No way to cancel a merited free throw unless the throws were attempted by the wrong shooter.

I don't have my rule book in front of me to cite a specific rule, but I believe "definite knowledge" pertains only to the officials on the court, and not any people working the table.

Say he missed the 2nd free throw... The POI is... alternating possession?

Nope!! Theres a couple of case plays where you can get information from the timer to correct a timing mistake. If the timer knows, hes a part of our crew, his information is definite.

5.10.1

I would have let it go (that is, end the game with the FTs) and not put any time back on the clock. There was no obvious timing error.

If he misses then AP would be the only way to continue. Obviously I think we can agree that this was done azz backwards!

Let's get rid of some of your confusion. You can never (NEVER) cancel FTs & replay in this sitch.

The only guidance I know of comes from the ncaa, rule 5 section 11

It was too late for the R to fix this, at least by ncaa rules.

I would have to agree with Bob on this one. However if the "R" is making a big enough deal about putting .2 back on then I'm saying by rule he can.

I agree. The situation was a mess. The whole night was a mess. Our Scheduled third didn't show, so The AD called the Middle school AD (the school was a few blocks away) and had one of the 6th grade officials come from the middle school to complete the crew.

What rule?:confused:

Rainmaker gave the applicable rule-- rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3. Bob Jenkins was correct. There was no timing error. The timer simply couldn't stop the clock before time expired. There's no rules basis that I'm aware of under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock. There's no monitor to use--like NCAA rules.

Wrong. The only applicable rule is that the ball must in the air on a tap before the horn goes for a basket to count. See case book play 5.2.5SitB. There is no minimum time for a tap, including a tap on a throw-in.

I agree that I wouldn't have done anything on this other then shoot the throws and leave. However I think the rule book would back up either situation.

5-6-2 Ex. 3 would back up calling it and leaving and Rule 5-10-1 in addition to applying Case play 5.10.1 Sit. D would back the ruling to add .2 back to the clock since it would be exact time observed by the timer which is also considered definitive knowledge.

In my game I'm calling it and leaving. In the OP's play the rule book would back the "R" up by putting up .2 and playing on.

Almost every box I have had at games displays tenths of a second. Twice this year the clock has showed zero with no horn and the scoreboard does not show tenths. I just calmly walk over to the table and ask if they have tenths on the box. They do and tell me. .9 in one game, .2 in the other. I then informed my partners and my coaches and we went from there.

We should all know this and be ready to check the table. I do think if the timer saw .2 then he had definite knowledge. The time to ask is before the free throws, not after. Although it sounds like since he made both and you found out about the .2, they did the right thing. I didn't read this whole thread carefully, so of course I could be wrong.

so the scorer was looking at his console (not the play?!) when he heard the whistle and "SAW" 0.2 on his console (while the tenths of seconds were counting down?!)...and lacking superspeed reactions, he couldn't stop the clock before the horn sounds.

I call "shennanigans". sounds like Roger Clemens working the Tennessee table :D

Rule 5-10-1 and case book play 5.10.1SitD refer to timing <b>mistakes</b>. This isn't a timing <b>mistake</b>. The timer stopped the clock properly; he simply couldn't get the clock stopped instantaneously with the official's whistle. Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION 3 allows for situations that occur like that at the end of a period and it directs us <b>not</b> to put any time back on the clock.

:D

It doesn't matter whether the clock has tenths or not. If the clock isn't malfunctioning, the period isn't over until the horn goes. It doesn't matter if the clock shows all zeros.You put the ball back into play and keep playing to the horn.

Case book play 5.6 covers the play explicitly.

FYI...the ncaa rule I posted is the the no monitor version.

FWIW... *IF* I thought the lag was there and *IF* I thought the timer had definite knowledge I would put the additional .2 on the clock. I would definitely not put it on after the FTs were attempted.

Why would the timer need to look at the play? He stops the clock on the whistle.

I always tell my table staff that in addition to being an active part of our crew, they should always be ready to give an opinion that will save our butts on something we should know, but for whatever reason we don't (the ball went in the basket; foul # or shooter; etc.)

Are you suggesting you prefer your timers to look at their console, not live ball play?

I don't read where it instructs us to NOT put any time back on the clock. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. I agree with what you are saying but can also see where you could argue that you can add time back up.

Since the FED took out Lag time we are now able to put up the exact time observed on the clock after a whistle. I suppose you could argue what exactly is considered so close that you can't get it stopped.

In the past Lag time took care of this argument, now since we really don't have a number to use then this is where I can see that the book would back either ruling. If I blow my whistle and look up and see .2 on the clock then time runs out and I can put .2 up on the clock if I should chose to. With the Lag time rule I couldn't.

In the OP's play you had foul, whistle, then horn. I can see having a play where there is foul, horn then whistle. In this type of play then I certainly think there would be no argument that the foul happened so close to the expiration that the timer couldn't stop the clock.

I still agree that in this play the book would support either ruling especially since they definitely had a whistle before the horn and the timer observed exact time on the clock.

Again in my game I'm calling it. The OP' oster asked if they were wrong. IMO I say no since I think the rule book would support the ruling even though I wouldn't adjudicate the rule in the same manner.

The only time that you have rules justification to put time back on is if the timer actually screws up. If it's just the normal lag from a timer hearing the whistle and then flicking the switch, then by rule you can't adjust anything. What the timer sees when he starts to flick the switch means squat. You just go by what's on the clock after he flicked the switch, as long as he didn't delay switching it.

The rules will only allow us do something only if the timer is <b>late</b> stopping the clock.

Iirc we had a long thread on something like this just a week or two ago.

Look in the place that says <i>"The quarter or extra period <b>ENDS</b> when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed."</i>

The rule that you're trying to use to put time back on is labeled <b>"TIMING MISTAKES"</b>. The timer didn't make a mistake. The timer stopped the clock properly and by rule as soon as he heard the whistle. The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't relevant.

Obviously I see where it says it ends but it doesn't INSTRUCT us to not put time on. Lag time is gone which used to give us a number to work with to define lag which gave instruction on when to add or not. That is no longer in the book, if its not in the book then it is left upto us what we would consider lag or mistake.

Maybe the timer could've stopped it since the whistle was clearly before the horn and left time on the clock maybe he couldn't. Its left upto us to decide what is a timing mistake and what isn't. What you think is lag may be considered a timing error by the next guy. I'm with you that if this was my game I'm gone. However the "R" on this game might have thought it was a mistake. If he did then by rule he can add time.

There's nothing in the rule that says we can't add time back to the clock. The only question/judgment is left upto us whether we thought there was a timing mistake.

We always have a long thread on something like this.

The rules allow us to change the clock with definite knowledge. IMO *IF* the timer somehow has definite knowledge I'm going with that *IF* I believe the clock is wrong.

I'm not suggesting either. Like you I want the table aware of what's going on. If the timer happens to be looking at the console and that saves my azz I'm a happy camper. :)

Reference?

Is it possible you're still considering the "lag time" principles? 5-10-1 allows for corrections with "definite information", and 5.10.1SitD says, "The timer and scorer and other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information". So, if the scorer says they definitely saw 0.2 on the clock at the time of the whistle, then I have definite information there was 0.2 left, no matter how quickly or slowly they hit the button.

In this case, I can't see how you would put the time back on after the FT's. If I can find out before the FT's there's 0.2 left, I'm putting it on.

Bubba fan?

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?:confused:

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing <b>MISTAKE</b> in that sequence? You can adjust the time for a timing <b>MISTAKE</b> using definite knowledge. That's rule 5-10. You can't adjust the clock per the oft-cited rule above if the timer simply stops the clock normally per rule 5-8-1(a). There's 2 different rules covering 2 different situations. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't applicable.

OK..lets try it this way. Does it say anywhere that I can't add time if the official concludes that there was a mistake?

If it doesn't then the "R" in this play is rule supported if he concluded the timer made a mistake by not stopping the time fast enough. Since there is nothing in the book that says the timer has so much time to stop the clock, such as lag time, then its simply left up to the official to decide if it was a timing error or not.

You & I on this play conclude that its not a timing error. The "R" on this play did therefore the rules support him/her adding time.

The part that has to do with correcting the mistake. This section deals with "if you know the foul happened before the horn, you still shoot FT's even though the horn went off". Especially if we don't know how much time to put back on the clock. Iow, we can't just wave off FT's because the horn went off and we are not putting time back on.

The part where there is definite information the whistle blew at 0.2, but the clock didn't stop at 0.2.

If the official looked up at the clock and saw 6.0 seconds when they blow the whistle, and the clock stops at (a)6.0, (b)5.9, (c)5.1, or (d)2.1, what time does the official tell the timer to put on the clock? Of course, we put 6.0 in every case now, because we have definite knowledge. There is <B>no more</B> lag time. And, the case play also tells us the timer can be used for obtaining the definite knowledge.

Cool, we agree. :)

The timer is to stop the clock when the whistle blows. If the timer had time to look at the console and see 0.2, the timer also had time to flip the switch. If, for some reason, the timer's finger slippped or the timer hesitated, that is a mistake. Time should be put back on the clock. When ANY official (including the timer) sees time on the clock (console included) after the whistle, that IS the time that gets restored. There is no lag time...the clock is supposed to stop at the same time as the whistle.

Imagine if the time, instead of 0.2, were 0.3, 0.5, 0.8 or even 1.5. Where is the line drawn? If the clock stops at anything less than any of the officiating crew sees on/after the whistle, it is a mistake.

There does seem to be some ambiguity between 5-6-2 Ex. 3 and 5-10. The exception still seems to allow for lag time, a concept that was supposedly removed a couple of years ago. While 5-10-1 allows the official to put back on the exact time that was observed and 5-8-1 indicates that the clock is to stop when the official signals to stop the clock.

To my feeble mind, I believe the only way to bring order to these seemingly conflicting rules is by prioritizing. And the priority, to my way of thinking, is that if we have definite knowledge of the time that was on the clock when the signal was given, that time should be placed back on the clock. If the exact time is not known, and the timer was unable to stop the clock before time expired, then we live with the time expiring.

The rules don't conflict. They're different rules for different situations.

Rule 5-10-1 is <b>only</b> used when there is a timer's mistake.....i.e the timer stopped the clock <b>wrongly</b>.

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION covers a very specific situation <b>only</b>(the end of a period) and is <b>only</b> applicable if the timer <b>hasn't</b> made a mistake in stopping the clock. Case book pay 5.6.2SitG confirms that.

Apples and oranges...and different rules for different situations.

Nope. If there was a mistake, you can put time back on.

See case book play 5.6.2SitG. though. That covers the play we're discussing.....a foul in the act of shooting followed by the end of a period while the ball is in flight. Note the time lag between the foul occurring and the end of the period(the act of shooting ends when the ball left the shooter's hands...the foul occurred <b>before</b> the ball left the shooter's hands). Note that <b>NO</b> time is put back on the clock in that case play. That's because the timer did <b>NOT</b> make a <b>mistake</b> in stopping the clock.

And wrongly is anytime it stops at a point after a time observed once the whistle has blown.

If the whistle blows and then the horn blows so quickly after that noone sees a time or there is no difference in the time seen, that is the point of 5-6-2Ex.

Disagree completely. That is <b>NOT</b> what R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 says. Case book play 5.6.2SitG completely disagrees with you also. If you were right, the difference from the time when the whistle was blown for the foul to the end of the period would be put back on the clock in both the EXCEPTION and the case play. It <b>isn't</b>!

I have agreed with you up to this point, but this case makes no mention of anyone seeing any amount of time, before, at, or after the official's signal, so how is it applicable here?

In fact, the rule and case cited don't even mention the whistle...the only thing mentioned is the infraction occurring and time expiring. If anything is to be assumed, it would be that the official's reaction in blowing the whistle was such that the horn sounded before or simultaneous with the whistle....in that case, no time restored since there had been no signal to indicate that the clock should stop.

Every new interpretation offered with the removal of lag time says that the time seen on the clock once the whistle is blown is restored to the clock. There is no distinction between 0.1 second and 2.0 seconds. If you see it, you put it back. Before, you'd only put it back if the delta were greater than 1 second. That's all that changed. You're suggesting that there is still some threshhold where you don't put it back.


Let's assume you (Jurrassic) are right. How much time does it take before you'd put something back??? How much time must you observe on the clock before it is not "so near" that you'll put it back?

You're not going to reply, I know, because you won't be able to post an answer that has any backing. If you do reply with a number, you'll be completely making it up.

Imagine the whistle blows at 2.0 and everyone sees 2.0 but the timer drops the handheld switchbox and can't get it stopped for 2 seconds. According to you, since the timer stopped it as fast as they could (there is no mention in the rule of exceptions to the exception), no adjustment can be made. Of course, this is preposterous.

What's preposterous is this much arguing about two tenths of a second. Two tenths. Not two seconds. I don't know what the threshold is, but it's sure greater than two tenths of a second. In the OP the time told the refs AFTER the shots were taken that she had seen two tenths. I'm doubting that. And the game is over. No rules basis to do anything else.

I posted the answer and the rules citations that back it that answer. Unfortunately, you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, as usual.

You can put time back on the clock <b>ONLY</b> if the timer makes a <b>MISTAKE</b>. That's rule 5-10. If the timer <b>DOESN'T</b> make a <b>MISTAKE</b>, there is <b>NO</b> rule in the book that will allow you to put time back on the clock. If you think differently, and you obviously do, then cite a rule...any rule...that will allow an official to put time back on the clock when there hasn't been a timing mistake.

The play that you detailed above is a timer's <b>MISTAKE</b>! It has got absolutely nothing to do with the play being discussed. In the play being discussed, there was <b>NO</b> timer's mistake.

And when you get a chance, maybe you can also explain why no time is put back on the clock in case book 5.6.2SitG. In that play, the foul occurred <b>BEFORE</b> the ball was in flight and time expired <b>AFTER</b> the ball was in flight. That's why 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is in the rule book.

I gave you the applicable rules citation. Now see if you you can find a rule...any rule... that will allow an official to put time back on the clock when the timer <b>hasn't</b> made a mistake. I await <b>your</b> reply.

I got this one. Because in 5.6.2.SitG no one has any definite knowledge of any time to put on the clock. The point of this case is when the game ends, and has nothing to do with time on the clock.

I know exacly the made up interpretation you're talking about...that's the problem. You refuse to enforce the rule as written but prefer the use your own personal version....the very thing you preach against.

Those cases are only partially relevant....because you're defining timer's mistake in a way that is not in the book....you're making up your own definition so you don't have to admit you're wrong. The timer is supposed to stop the clock on the whistle.

Rule 5-6- Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official: ART 1...Signals: (a) foul (b) held ball (c) a violation) ART. 2 ....

Note that is says the clock shall be stopped when an official...signals. It doesn't say soon after the official signals...it says when. That means at the same time....before lag time was removed, it meant soon (< 1 sec) after. But now, it is the same time.

If they don't....they've made a mistake. Any delay is a mistake, by rule. If they stop it ANY after the whistle, the time is to be restored if there is definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock. It is obvious if you can tell time was on the clock when the whistle was blown and the horn comes after.

The fact that you can't cite how much time separates when it is a mistake versus when it is not a mistake or define what a mistake is versus normal behavior exposes your argument for what it is....wrong.

Again, I ask and await your answer...by what criteria do you seperate mistake from non-mistake? 0.1 sec, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5....1.5, 5.0, 10.0??? How much time does it take to become a mistake???

It makes no mention of the whistle...the clock stops on the whistle, not the infraction. The timer is not expected to stop the clock before the whistle. The implication in that situation is that the referee (seeing the whole play) doesn't blow the whistle instantly but blows it as the shot is released.

Camron, if what you're saying is true, then every time the clock stops, there's a timing error, and we should be looking at the clock every time we blow the whistle and putting time back on the clock, every time we blow the whistle. That is the only possible interpretation to what you're saying. And it's laughable. There's no way that can be what the Rules Committee intended when they took lag time out of the rule book.

No, it's not what they intended...and have actually said as much....and intent is what this is all about. I'm not going to go dig it all up but the explaination of the changes said that such precision was only intened for the closing seconds of a quarter/game....not with 3 minutes on the clock.

So, we're supposed to use one set of timing rules for 99% of the game, and then in the "closing seconds" switch to some other set of rules that aren't clearly spelled out as being different? Huh?? How were we supposed to know this??

How many closing seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Of any quarter?? Any game?? Even if the score is a 50 point spread? If this is what they intended, why aren't they telling us more specifically, more directly, more IN THE RULES AND CASE BOOK that we need to look at the clock every time we blow the whistle, so that we can get the correct time back onto the clock to finish out the game?

There's physically no way for the clock to stop exactly when the whistle blows, unless the refs are using PT, which most high school games don't. The rules committee knows that. And they've never indicated that we're supposed to make the "closing seconds" PT-like. Now you're saying we should?

In the OP, there was no timing mistake. The clock operator turned off the clock as fast as possible, and within the rules. So there's no rules basis to put time back on the clock. Until you can show a rulebook, casebook, or official's manual citation to prove otherwise, I don't see how you can justify your position from some obscure paragraph that has to be "dug up".

By what rule??? the quote you've cited above? That doesn't refer only to the closing seconds of the game, but you say it does/should. You're really reaching here, Camron.

You're the one that's being preposterous here, Camron. Of course this is EXACTLY the kind of timing mistake that needs fixing. This hypothetical is completely irrelevant to the OP.

This question is valid and nobody has provided a rule supported answer. Like I have said in my earlier post that the definition of whether there is a timing mistake or not is solely left up to the discretion of the official since they removed the lag time rule.

Fed took out lag time which took out the amount of time that would be considered a reasonable time for the timer to stop the clock that would be the measurement to determine if there was a mistake. If they intended for us to not be able to put back on the clock the exact time seen then they would've surly left a time amount in to use as a measurement.

JR would be correct in his ruling if he determined that there wasn't a mistake. If the "R" in the OP determined or made the conclusion that it was a timing error/mistake then by rule he/she can add time back on the clock.

There nothing in the rules that would state the official in the OP is wrong by adding time back to the clock. Nor does the book instruct us to not add time back to the clock, if the officials make the determination that the timer made a mistake.

What if it was .3, .4, .5, .6....What's the number we should use to make the determination? I think thats the argument. You say that you know that its greater then .2 and I would have to agree, but how do we know?

The book gives us a definite time to use on throw-in's with .3 or less to make a determination if it has to be tapped or if it can be caught. So if were not to be able to add time then why not give a definite time to use to determine if there is a mistake?

The book doesn't no longer give us a benchmark time to use to distinguish if there was a timing error. Since its no longer there then observed time can be put back on by rule since the official would have to determine that it was a timing error.

What if while the clock was running the HC calls a T/O, you blow your whistle while looking @ the clock, and notice @ your whistle there was 1 second but it stopped @ .2,.3, .4, or.5.. Are you going to adjust the time? What if the coach sees that more time runs off after your whistle?

Like I said way down the line that I think an argument could be made the the book would support either ruling on the OP play.

Reaction Time Statistics:

Here are some interesting statistics from the Reaction Time database.
These change in real time, as more people take the test.

The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds.

Could this be used to say that there was no obvious mistake in the OP?

System Internationale ....
 

For those metrically challanged Forum members, I believe that's 0.215 seconds.

http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/f10/391558249

Also: I forget, how many bushels in a peck?

OK, I've done some digging and have found references for part of my claim. As I've claimed all along, you got to know more than the printed rule, you've got to know the intent of the rule and a little history to understand some of the compactly written rules...

Look at the wording and interpretations before the change from the 04-05 rules interpretation sheet (highlighting mine):


<B>

Situation #8: </B>

As the official calls a traveling violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows 55 seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at 55 seconds; (b) at 54 seconds; (c) at 53 seconds; or (d) 50 seconds.
Ruling: In (a) and (b), there has been no obvious timing mistake. The timer should be able to react and stop the clock in one second when the whistle is heard and/or the signal is seen. However, in (c) and (d), more than one second of time elapsed from the time the signal was given until the clock was stopped. The referee will order 55 seconds put on the clock in (c) and (d). (5–10–1)
Comment: By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official’s signal is heard and/or seen clearly. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. Additional time which may subsequently run off the clock (after the one second lag time) is considered a timing mistake and may be corrected.

Now, look at the wording and descriptions after the change...

Comments on the 2006-07 Basketball Rules Revisions

LAG TIME ELIMINATED (5-10-1): This change eliminates the need for lag time or reaction time on the part of the clock operator. The referee may put the exact time observed by an official back on the game clock. The committee felt that with new clock technology and the ability to observe tenths of a second, when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock.

So, the NFHS, in 04-05 considered 1 second to be the threshold between mistake and non-mistake....as it was beyond the allowed lag time of 1 second. Now, they've "ELIMINATED" the lag time, not cut in in half, not cut it by 4....but eliminated. The comment CLEARLY says the clock operator's reaction time is eliminated and when the official observes a time on the clock, they may put it back and should have the ability to put it back.

Now, onto the 2nd point....whether it is "optional" or not. Note that the comment says "may" and has the "ability" to put it back but doesn't use the word "shall". That is a little less clear but that grants the official the option of not restoring fractional time when there are 5 minutes left or when it is a 20 point differential with 4 seconds left. I know there is some other source that talks more directly about this but I've not yet located it.

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 states that the official is wrong in the OP to add time back on the clock.

If you think differently, then please point out to me where in the the original post I can read that the timer actually has made <b>ANY</b> kind of timing <b>MISTAKE</b> then, by <b>RULE</b>. Please be explicit. I realize that I'm not as smart as some of the other posters here. For the life of me, I can't seem to find anything written anywhere that says that the timer was slow to stop the clock, or that he actually did anything but stop the clock normally as he had also done on every other whistle during the game.

Sorry JR but it doesn't say that he is wrong. The question that you have yet to answer is when, IYO, is it a mistake and when isn't it. How much time does it take to determine that a timing mistake has happened? You can't by rule answer that since they took lag time out. Camron's post pretty much nails that down, IMO.

The point is that you don't know if in the OP that the timer made a mistake or not. You are assuming that he/she didn't. Since we no longer have the lag time rule or a pre determined time to use then it has to be assumed that if more time runs off then what you seen when the whistle was blown that it would have to be considered a timing error.

Where may I read in the original post that any <b>OFFICIAL</b> observed <b>ANY</b> time showing on the clock at <b>ANY</b> time <b>DURING</b> the play?:confused:

Is there a rule that I'm not aware of somewhere that will allow the R to put time back on the clock when neither he or any of his partners actually saw a time on the clock...at any time? :confused:

When you and OJ continue your respective searches, see if <b>you</b> can actually find something relevant to the play being discussed. Like maybe some kind of rule that will actually back up what you're trying to assert.

5.10.1 Situation D .....The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information.

In the OP there isn't tenths on the game clock but on the console. If the timer see .2 on the console then his information would be defined as definite.

How many freaking times times do I have to answer the same damn question? Was the timer <b>SLOW</b> stopping the clock? If you think so, then point out where I can read something that says that. I can't find anything anywhere that states that the timer <b>DIDN'T</b> stop the clock by rule.

Case book play 5.6.2SitG is almost the same play, and you goobers fail to admit that it even exists. Where can I read in that case play that time should be put back on the clock?

I'm done. I'm tired of pointing the same damn thing out over and over. You and Camron can give me a call if or when either of you can find something...anything...that states that the timer actually had made a mistake on this play.

Did anyone ask the timer if he actually was slow stopping the clock? You know, that he actually had committed a timing mistake? Unless the timer actually made a mistake, definite information isn't relevant in any way.

Carry on without me from now on.:rolleyes:

LMAO....goobers. :D

Alright Dude. I'm OK with leaving it as it is. I'm still cracking up over calling us GOOBERS! That was GREAT!!!:D

"almost" key but relevant word...the difference is the one item that makes it not apply.

"goobers"...your typical tactic when you can't back up your claims...call people names, belittle them, and hope that your antics distract everyone from the fact that you have no support for you claim.

As predicted, you continue to ignore the most relevant points since you have no answer for them. I've even posted the NFHS's words that prove you wrong...that the timer gets NO reaction time (it was eliminated)...which means that a mistake, by deduction, is anything more than 0.

Yet, you claim its not not a mistake for an observed and definite .2 to run off but have nothing to back that up....nothing....the case you mention doesn't mention a time at all....its about when the horn sounds after the whistle and the officials DON'T see a time on the clock.

You're not POINTING out anything, you're making it up. That's the problem. You're repeating your own definition of mistake, not the NFHS's. You've done nothing but repeat that same thing and not answer the missing points...what is a mistake? Define it! I've provided you with the NFHS definition from thier comments, yet you chose to not even acknowledge it all.

Refusing to answer the most important hole in your interpretation doesn't make your interpretation right, it just exposes it more clearly that it's wrong....the fact that you ignore it when it has been asked several times shows you can't answer it.

Ok, how about this:
Doesn't that count?

Btw, I'm more of a Gomer fan. Although I can see Goober's appeal...

Gotta disgaree with JR
 

Situation 5.6.2 was written for determining end of game not for fixing the clock.

In that sitaution:

1) Score was tied
2) person fouled
3) time expires/horn goes off
4) they have two shots
5) 1st one is made game over
6) NO T's for celebration for game being over

The plain reading of the rule is...

The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.


There is no lag time. Cameron is right the rule assumes the clock must stop immediately, and that if we have definite knowledge of when it was supposed to have stopped we can fix it. (Does not say we have to...)

This is where common sense comes into play. If a clock doesnt stop for a second at the 4 minute mark in the first quarter who cares? Most people arent watching the clock and I would rule that as not an obvious error..

The last few seconds of a quarter it does make a difference. If I blow a whistle and look up and see it go from 24.1 to 23.6, it most likely was higher than 24.1 when I blew the whistle because it took a reaction time for me to look up... In common sense that is what the scorer's reaction time is to shut doen the clock, the same for me to look up... I will reset it in my situation above to 24.1. If it is a hard play and it runs another two seconds because I am staying with players and dont see it I am not resetting it a all. This .5 seconds that the clock did not stop is obvious to everyone.

The timer and scorer can tell me that they did not shut off the clock, but I wont guess to what the time would be...

The only way I will use a timer or scorer to assist in giving me definitive knowledge is if we had a timeout where time was recorded in the book (or they record time of fouls, keep a play by play etc) or if the tell me they did not start it and I had a count (see case book)


If you really want to get into the absurd. The rule says the timer shall stop the clock when the official signals the foul. Throughout the book signal means hand signals...

I have had a situation occur this year when had to use all the rules from -6 and 5-10
Had a game with aan old clock three point ball ball game... Ball away, foul, horn... shooter goes to the line shooting three to tie. I tell coaches that if she misses one of the first two game is over (she missed the third)

Had another gama last week.. I call OOB as trail low in the corner, whistle then horn.. Timer wanted to put time back on clock (his team of course) I did not see the clock because it was such a close/hard play at sideline. Newer partner did not look up. If i would have guessed, it would have been .2-.3 another official in the stands said it was closer to a second.... but he was up higher in stand where he could see play and clock.... If I would have seen the clock not stop on whistle I would have fixed it...

Tried an experiment up at the local school today. Had the clock running with less than a minute, tenths flying by. Had three people observe carefully. When I blew the whistle, they were supposed to note the number of tenths showing.
Did it 5 times. The three observers did not all give the same answer once. They gave 3 different answers 3 times. Of the 15 responses, 2 were: I don't know. Conclusion: A mistake involving .2 seconds is not obvious to anyone.

Camron- you have done a great job in this thread and are exactly right. A timing mistake, by definition, is ANY amount of time that runs off of the clock after the whistle sounds.

I get asked all the time what seperates a good official from a great official, and clock management at the end of a quarter is absolutely one of the top things on that list. If you want to make it as a "big time" official, you better be able to look at a running clock and recognize the tenth of a second it was on when the whistle blew.

C. Vivian Stringer disagrees with you.

She did an experiment at her local school, too?

Home Field Advantage ???
 

I thought she did her experiment at someone elses school?

I see your point, Camron, and I appreciate your doing that digging. However, your putting the option they give as the second point completely negates all the arguement you've done. We don't HAVE TO put the time back. So far you haven't allowed for any discretion. ALL THEY INTENDED in eliminating lag time, was to give the refs authority to put back less than a second if they felt that was just. There was no spirit or intent to force precision in sitches such as the OP.

Huh? Where else would precision mean the most, than at the end of a close game? :eek:

Am I going to correct 0.2 in the first half? Nope, because the clock doesn't show tenths at that time. So the only thing I can correct is whole seconds. The only time the clock shows tenths is in the last minute of the quarter/half/game. That is also when tenths of a second mean more. Would I be looking closely at the end of a 20-point game? Probably not. But I would certainly be watching very closely at the end of a close game.

The wording is to ALLOW, not FORCE. Clearly, the committee expects the refs to use their judgment about what to do. There's nothing in the language that Camron cited that requires the ref to put the time back on the clock in the OP. It allows the ref to decide that the timer goofed (which I would say she didn't), and to make up for that. But the ref doesn't HAVE to. Camron makes it sound like it's required, and I"m disagreeing with that interpretation, and it is an interpretation, not a literal reading, Camron.

That is EXACTLY the spirint and intent. It is expected that we manage the clock precisely when the time remaining is little. If that was not the spirit/intent, they would have just left lag time in place. Why change it and say lag time is eliminated if we still allow lag time??? That's what allowing any extra time would be.

The "option" is to not force us to manage 10ths of seconds where there are minutes left. The statements the NFHS made at the time of the change (and I can't locate the documents) clearly stated that the precision was intended for the end of close games and not other situations.