Traveling?

Ball is on the floor, A1 has his hand on top of the ball with one knee on the floor, with his hand still on the ball, he stands up then picks up the ball and 1) dribbles, 2) passes or 3) shoots. Any, or all of these legal?

Same situation only instead of one hand he has two hands on top of the ball.

Is this contact with the ball considered control? We know if the player picks the ball up first he can't stand up, but in this situation he doesn't "pick up" the ball. Any thoughts?

[BktBallRef]

Based on 4.43.5B & 4.43.5D, I believe you could make a case for traveling.

A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?
Ruling: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball.

A1 secures possession of the ball with one knee in contact with the floor. May A1 assume a standing position without committing a traveling violation?
Ruling: It depends on what A1 does. If A1 attempts to stand up while holding the ball, a traveling violation occurs. However, if A1 starts a dribble and then rises, no violation has occurred. Also, A1 could pass, try for goal or call a time-out from that position.

The bottom line is do you consider him to have held the ball. If you do, it's traveling.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Suppref
Ball is on the floor, A1 has his hand on top of the ball with one knee on the floor, with his hand still on the ball, he stands up then picks up the ball and 1) dribbles, 2) passes or 3) shoots. Any, or all of these legal?

Same situation only instead of one hand he has two hands on top of the ball.

Is this contact with the ball considered control? We know if the player picks the ball up first he can't stand up, but in this situation he doesn't "pick up" the ball. Any thoughts?

The rule is that if he is on the floor and holding the ball, then sets the ball down, then stands up, then picks the ball up, it's traveling. This rule is in the book to prevent a player from circumventing the violation where he would just simply stand up while holding the ball.

If you feel having one or two hands on top of the ball while on the floor puts that player in player control, then you have a travel. However, remember that the definition of player control is "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds", so it would seem to me that having a hand (or two) on top of a ball that is resting on the floor is not the same as holding it. To hold it, I would think it would have to be between your hands or resting on one or both hands.

If the situation was exactly as you described it, and the player had never held the ball while on the floor before just having his hand or hands on top of it, I have a no call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
If you feel having one or two hands on top of the ball while on the floor puts that player in player control, then you have a travel. However, remember that the definition of player control is "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds", so it would seem to me that having a hand (or two) on top of a ball that is resting on the floor is not the same as holding it. To hold it, I would think it would have to be between your hands or resting on one or both hands.

If the situation was exactly as you described it, and the player had never held the ball while on the floor before just having his hand or hands on top of it, I have a no call.

It might depend on the level. Most boys in HS, even at the frosh level can palm the ball.

[Bart Tyson]

I don't think this is a violation. What is the difference when a player is holding the ball with both hands and without releasing the ball, touches the floor with the ball and brings it back up. No violation.

[tharbert]

Work with me here....
A1 and B1 both trap the ball against the floor. Each has a hand resting firmly on the ball. Neither can pick it up and neither can gain sole possession. I would call this a jump ball. Both players have control by using the floor rather than their other hand.

I think I would choose a travel call in SupRef's scenario if he lifted his knee while pinning the ball to the floor. In this case, I'd lean toward the idea that he is "holding" the ball there with one hand as opposed to bobbling it at his feet. This would probably happen so fast that you wouldn't have to much time to analyze this too deeply.

And it would never happen...B3 would crash into A1 in an attempt to get the ball and I would probably go with the foul so I wouldn't have to do all that deep thinkin'

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
I don't think this is a violation. What is the difference when a player is holding the ball with both hands and without releasing the ball, touches the floor with the ball and brings it back up. No violation.

The difference is that in the original play, his knee is on the floor and he stands up. So, to apply it to your play properly...

What is the difference when a player is holding the ball with both hands and without releasing the ball, puts a knee on the floor, touches the floor with the ball, stands up, and brings it back up?

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Based on 4.43.5B & 4.43.5D, I believe you could make a case for traveling.
[snip]
The bottom line is do you consider him to have held the ball. If you do, it's traveling.

Tony,

I've got him holding the ball on the floor, attempting to rise and a traveling violation.
Easy call from here.

mick

[Bart Tyson]

You are saying one hand on top of the ball is the same holding the ball?

[mick]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
You are saying one hand on top of the ball is the same holding the ball?

hold:

1. to maintain possession of

2. to impose restraint upon

3. to have or keep in the grasp

4. to handle so as to guide and manage

Easy call from here, Bart.
mick

[Bart Tyson]

OK i agree.

[tharbert]

In my mind's eye, I had both players prone on the floor (that's both knees, belly, toes, chest...on the floor BBR) but standing will do too. It all comes down to how you interpret control from the words "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds." I still have travel if the kid lifts the knee in Suppref's post but I reserve the right to decide differently when I actually see the play and can determine for myself if A1's actions constitute control of the ball versus a bobble, slap, bump, tap, brief contact, etc.

As for A1 touching the ball to the ground not being a violation, that is in regards to the dribble, not control or the question of traveling.

Originally posted by mick

hold:

1. to maintain possession of

2. to impose restraint upon

3. to have or keep in the grasp

4. to handle so as to guide and manage

Easy call from here, Bart.
mick

But...Do these definitions apply to the original situation?
Maybe #2 but that's a bit of a stretch.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by tharbert
[
As for A1 touching the ball to the ground not being a violation, that is in regards to the dribble, not control or the question of traveling. [/B]

I'm not sure what you are saying. While holding the ball and touching the ball to the floor( never releasing the ball) and bring back off the floor is nothing. It is not dribbling.

[mick]

Originally posted by Suppref

But...Do these definitions apply to the original situation?
Maybe #2 but that's a bit of a stretch.

A1 has his hand on top of the ball with one knee on the floor, with his hand still on the ball, he stands up then picks up the ball

Suppref,
Well, yeah... I think so. Otherwise I wouldn't have chosen those definitions.
mick