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Camron Rust Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:50am

Congrats!!!
 
Congrats to icallfouls!!!!

He was just selected to represent our association in the Oregon 5A/6A Boys State Tournament. While not his first tournament, it is his first at this level.

A big, whopping, way-to-go!!! :D

rainmaker Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Congrats to icallfouls!!!!

He was just selected to represent our association in the Oregon 5A/6A Boys State Tournament. While not his first tournament, it is his first at this level.

A big, whopping, way-to-go!!! :D

Wa-hoo!! Way to go, Jim! You deserve it without any question!

JRutledge Mon Feb 04, 2008 01:12am

Congrats to icallfouls for your assignment.

Camron, could you clarify what that assignment means. Does that mean he will be working the State Championship game or does that mean he is working a level close to the State Championship game?

Peace

rainmaker Mon Feb 04, 2008 01:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
Congrats to icallfouls for your assignment.

Camron, could you clarify what that assignment means. Does that mean he will be working the State Championship game or does that mean he is working a level close to the State Championship game?

Peace

In Oregon the state quarter-finals, semi-finals, and finals are all played over a weekend. 5A and 6A levels are played in the same gyms on the same weekend. The associations each choose a few refs to go to the tournament. Every ref that's chosen works one game every day. Of the 12 or so that work the tournament, 2 will work the 5A championship, and 2 the 6A. If I were to do the choosing, icallfouls (Jim) would definitely get to do whichever one he wants.

Camron Rust Mon Feb 04, 2008 01:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
Congrats to icallfouls for your assignment.

Camron, could you clarify what that assignment means. Does that mean he will be working the State Championship game or does that mean he is working a level close to the State Championship game?

Peace

Our process selects 19 official to travel to the various final tournament sites....where 8 teams in each classification (6A-largest, 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, 1A-smallest) play a single elimination bracket (plus consolation games) for the state championship. Unless I'm mistaken, there are 12 officials at each tournament. Our allotment, based on the proportion of the schools we serve in each classification gives us 6, 6, 1, 2, 2, and 2 in each tournament.

As for Jim's tourney, the 5A and 6A boys play seperate brackets the same site. So, the 6 we send, along with the other 6 from the rest of the state, work the quarterfinals, semi-finals, and finals for both brackets. There are only 4 games the first day so only 8 work on Wednesday, but there are 6 games on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, so all 12 work those days....everyone gets either 3 or 4 games. The first couple of days of games (quarterfinals and some consolation games) are predetermined but the semis/finals assignments are determined at the tourney.

tomegun Mon Feb 04, 2008 06:24am

Does Oregon use two-man for state too?

gordon30307 Mon Feb 04, 2008 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
In Oregon the state quarter-finals, semi-finals, and finals are all played over a weekend. 5A and 6A levels are played in the same gyms on the same weekend. The associations each choose a few refs to go to the tournament. Every ref that's chosen works one game every day. Of the 12 or so that work the tournament, 2 will work the 5A championship, and 2 the 6A. If I were to do the choosing, icallfouls (Jim) would definitely get to do whichever one he wants.

Two person? No three person crews even for the State Championship? What's the reason? Is it budgets? I heard from a freind that moved to Arizona that the state tried 3 person but it was a disaster and they reverted back to two person crews. Did your state have a similar experience?

TimTaylor Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:47am

Congrats Jim! Way to go!

Camron Rust Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordon30307
Two person? No three person crews even for the State Championship? What's the reason? Is it budgets? I heard from a freind that moved to Arizona that the state tried 3 person but it was a disaster and they reverted back to two person crews. Did your state have a similar experience?

Yep, 2 person...even at State. I think the reason is that they don't want officials working a new system at the tourney....the coverage will be better with officials working what they know. Some do work college and know 3 person, but not all.

JRutledge Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:26pm

Cam and Juulie,

Thanks for the clarification. Your system sounds a lot like our system except we work 3 Person for all of our games and we do not call that level the State Tournament, we call it the State Finals. I just wanted to make sure he was working a higher level than I first thought.

Peace

rockyroad Mon Feb 04, 2008 01:13pm

Icallfouls is doing State??? What idiot made that decision? Good grief...

Just kidding - Jim knows that something like this can't occur without catching some crap from his buddies.

Way to go Jim!! Kinda makes up for some of the other "stuff" this season, doesn't it!:p

truerookie Mon Feb 04, 2008 01:15pm

Congrats!! Enjoy

Smitty Mon Feb 04, 2008 01:31pm

Camron - congrats to you as well for being on the cusp of getting a state assignment as well. I noticed you were the next one on the list. What a difference a vote makes, eh?

I always enjoy looking at the table of results and seeing who ended up where. I was quite surprised to see my namesake as high on the list as he was. I just don't get it, but maybe he's better than I give him credit for.

Anyway...well done for being so high on the list!

Camron Rust Mon Feb 04, 2008 03:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty
Camron - congrats to you as well for being on the cusp of getting a state assignment as well. I noticed you were the next one on the list. What a difference a vote makes, eh?

There were 7 of us clustered tightly...less than 2 school votes apart....5 made it, 2 didn't. (association votes and school votes are weighted differently...giving fractional total votes.) With 1 more school vote, I would have moved up 3 spots or 1 more offiical vote, I'd be up 2 spots. Either would have had me in. :(

Here is how it looked...14th through 20th....school vote = 1, officials vote = 0.435. I'm the one in red.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 51pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=68 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 51pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2486" width=68><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 51pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" width=68 height=18 x:num="31.764705882352942">31.765</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" height=18 x:num="31.329411764705881">31.329</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" height=18 x:num="30.847058823529412">30.847</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" height=18 x:num="30.28235294117647">30.282</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" height=18 x:num="29.976470588235294">29.976</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" height=18 x:num="29.894117647058824">29.894</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl19 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffcc" height=18 x:num>29.800</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty
I always enjoy looking at the table of results and seeing who ended up where. I was quite surprised to see my namesake as high on the list as he was. I just don't get it, but maybe he's better than I give him credit for.

True...I've seen officials that I've thought were fairly poor officials only to see them a year or two later and be impressed. Officals (hopefully most) improve...some more than others. Officials all have an occassional bad game. If you saw me 10 years ago, you'd have laughed if someone mentioned I'd ever be near a varsity game much less a tourney. I had a lot to learn and its taken me a while but I get better every year....and will keep pushing to improve.

rockyroad Mon Feb 04, 2008 04:01pm

So the school (read as Coach) vote is worth more than twice as much as your peer votes or evaluation? Why????:confused:

Camron Rust Mon Feb 04, 2008 04:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
So the school (read as Coach) vote is worth more than twice as much as your peer votes or evaluation? Why????:confused:

I've questioned that too!

In fact, the way the equation works is that the coaches votes as a group are weighted equal to the officials as a group based on the number of ballots submitted from each...so the number changes from year to year.

Last year it was nearly 4:1 and near 3:1 the the year before. So, we really hounded the coaches this year to get it down to what it was. I also rewrote the process for getting coaches votes submitted through RefTown (so they had easy and clear access and also had picture ballots). We got the best turnout from the coaches ever....but still less than half voted.

We have about 230 eligible officials and 160 eligible coaches. If the same number of each voted, it would be 1:1, however, we'll always get better turnout from officials than coaches....so it will never get close to 1:1.

I had, when we revamped our tourney selection process 2 years ago, proposed keeping the ratio but with a cap of 2:1 based on the fact that in a lower turnout year, 1 or 2 coaches votes could completely reshuffle the list. I was shot down.

Smitty Mon Feb 04, 2008 04:51pm

Were you shot down by the old guard who have become chummy with the coaches over the years, but know they can't keep up with some of the younger guys moving up in the Association?

It's a system that could never be perfect, but as it is now, it is more flawed than perfect. It is what it is, though. I was surprised that the coaches votes were so much more significant.

rockyroad Mon Feb 04, 2008 04:56pm

So coaches vote for ALL officials, even ones that might not have done one of their games this season? And if one coach really, really dislikes an official, that one bad vote can REALLY damage that official's chances of going to State??

I have said this before, but here it goes again - the rating system in Oregon is messed up. As far as I'm concerned, coaches should have little, if any, say in determining who works postseason games. Too much emotion, too much baggage...

Smitty Mon Feb 04, 2008 04:59pm

There are no "bad votes", only votes. So you either get a vote from a coach or you don't. And yes, the coaches vote for the same list of officials as the rest of the Association votes on. Whether they worked a game at their school or not. Doesn't exactly seem right, does it?

rockyroad Mon Feb 04, 2008 05:04pm

Ahhhh, so they can't vote "No" on anyone. I see...But they can leave a name blank, which ends up hurting the official also. Still too much power in the hands of the inmates, imho.

JRutledge Mon Feb 04, 2008 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
Ahhhh, so they can't vote "No" on anyone. I see...But they can leave a name blank, which ends up hurting the official also. Still too much power in the hands of the inmates, imho.

I have to agree.

That is why I like our system. Coaches have input but their input can be trumped by fellow officials. And post season assignments are not decided by the input, it is the only a very small consideration of a larger scale.

Peace

Camron Rust Mon Feb 04, 2008 06:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
So coaches vote for ALL officials, even ones that might not have done one of their games this season? And if one coach really, really dislikes an official, that one bad vote can REALLY damage that official's chances of going to State??

I have said this before, but here it goes again - the rating system in Oregon is messed up. As far as I'm concerned, coaches should have little, if any, say in determining who works postseason games. Too much emotion, too much baggage...

As smitty said, there are no "No" votes. The coaches got a list of 78 officials (parred down from ~230 by the association alone). The coaches then select up to 15 they'd like to see in the tourney. So, one coach with an axe to grind leaving the name of one really good official out doesn't have much impact....especially at the top...the seperation between positions the top few was more than 1-2 votes. Presumably, those sorts of things average out as the turnout improves.

I do think the coaches have more say than they should...its too much of a conflict of interest for them to have a substantially more strongly weighted vote. However, I also see the sides of those in favor of coaches having a say...it forces the officials to work more "with" the coaches than default to being their adversaries. It forces officials to communicate more and be more approachable. At the same time, it also opens the door for politicing and such.

Of course, no matter how you slice it, someone will not like it (that someone who'd do better under what they'd prefer).

icallfouls Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:00pm

Looking forward to it
 
Thanks to everyone for taking a moment to offer congratulations.

It is a great opportunity/honor/responsibility to be selected. I am grateful that my peers think that I am good enough to represent them. As far as the coaches, I think that they respect my ability to communicate, adjudicate a fair contest, and work hard to get plays right.


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