AP question
 

I know I'm missing something, but here's the scenario.
AP throwin for A.
Legal held ball between thrower and B1.
Who gets the ball?

Arrow switches when the throwin ends, which happens when ball is legally touched on the playing court. This tells me it should be B's ball, but the devil on my shoulder keeps telling me it should stay with A. What am I missing, 'cause if the devil on my shoulder is right, then that's a precedent I'd love to go forward with.

that little devil on your shoulder is the coach of A. Ignore him.

SORRY - missed the part that the thrower still had the ball.

6.4.5 says not to change the arrow and the subsequent throwin will be an AP throwin for A.

Quicky answer without consulting book. I say B gets it, as ball is legally touched in bounds and A happens to be out of bounds, therefore violation on A and B gets ball AND AP arrow.

This is of course a product of A sticking the ball across the inbounds plane enabling B to legally grab ball (as you mentioned). I await the high council's ruling.

The throw ends after the ball is touched in bounds, but not if the thrower never releases the ball. The throw in must be released directly into the court, thus since no release, no completed throw in. The arrow is pointing A's direction. They get the ball again for an AP throw in.

Case book paly 6.4.5SitB to be exact. It's the same play. Good catch.

I like it when the devil on my shoulder is correct. thanks. ;)

Full, your full of it........

7.6.4 SITUATION F: Thrower A1 inadvertently holds the ball through the end-line plane during a throw-in. B1 is able to get his/her hands on the ball and A1 cannot pull it back. RULING: There is no player or team control during a throw in, therefore a held ball is called, resulting in an alternating-possession throw-in. If the original throw-in is an alternating-possession throw-in, Team A still has the arrow following the held ball.

But if he's correct, he's not a devil! The devil only deals in half-truths.

What in the world are you doing with M&M Guy on your shoulder? :confused: That has GOT to result in some serious chiropractor time!!:p

You're full of it too! :D

I only reported about half of what he said. The rest was pretty high praise for some ref named "Chuck."

...half-truth...high praise... chuck... way, way too easy...

Word.

You're right. I should have known which half was the truth.

:D

Yup, you're missing case book play 6.4.5SitB as already cited.

Where you're getting screwed up is in the definition of a throw-in. Take a look at rules 4-42-4&5. To have a throw-in, the ball must be <b>released</b> by the thrower directly into the court. Article 5 also says that the the throw-in ends when the <b>passed</b> ball touches or is legally touched by another player. In the play being discussed, the ball was <b>NEVER</b> released or passed. Ergo....the throw-in never ended.

Make sense now?

I can't break that habit.......always kick that.

The wording of this play indicates a jumpball whether B1 cleanly takes the ball from A1 or not. Am I reading this correctly, is it always a jump ball? Or can B1 take the ball away from A1 with no jump ball.

Of course B1 can take the ball away.

Okay, if the throwin doesn't end until the "passed" ball is touched on the court….
AP throwin.
B1 grabs ball and immediately pulls it away from A1; no held ball call. Switch the arrow?

I agree with you, but the case play does not seem to allow for it. If Bb1 gets hands on ball and A1 can't pull it back then jumpball.
That very scenario takes place when B1 takes the ball from A1.

I have seen a case where the player out of bounds making the throw in, places his hand out in front of him, inbounds, palm up so that the ball is simply resting in his hand. If the defensive player then slaps the ball out of his hand, that wouldn't possibly be a held ball, would it?

Unless B1 just yanks it away from A1 suddenly, and hustles away. In that case, the throw-in ends legally.

Also, what Smitty says is correct.

And BTW, if A2 removes the ball from A1's hand in any of these ways, it's illegal.

Not in my judgement. I presume you are not wanting me to be your definitive source, what does the rule/case play tell you?

I think the question was Socratic/rhetorical.

How does the throwin end?

Ball is touched legally in-bounds.

I was simply refuting your claim that by definition taking the ball away from the inbounder when they hold it on the inbounds side of the line is always a held ball. I am assuming, based on the previous rule citation, even though the ball is slapped out of the inbounder's hand and play goes on from there, the arrow is not reversed because the thrower never released the ball, and therefore the throw-in never ended. Seems weird, but that's how it seems to play out.

But it was never passed. Definition states a passed ball has to be touched for the throwin to end.

But it doesn't have to be passed. A passed ball has to be touched, but the ball doesn't have to be passed.

Look at the definition of the throwin; specifically how it ends.

Yup, but then look at case 7.6.3 Sitch A. If the throw-in hadn-t ended, why would the basket count?

I guess they're defining a pass to include reaching the ball through the plane??

Semantics, but I didn't claim, I questioned.

7.6.4 SITUATION F: Thrower A1 inadvertently holds the ball through the end-line plane during a throw-in. B1 is able to get his/her hands on the ball and A1 cannot pull it back.

The case play does not say A1 and B1 are in a tug-of-war but I think it assumes it. It could occurr where the ball is cleanly snatched from A1, yet B1 got their hands on the ball and A1 could not pull it back (meeting the terms of 7.6.4).

Then B should get the ball on the held ball situation discussed in my OP.

Read it as "The throw in ends when the released ball is legally touched."

In the OP, the ball wasn't released.

In the revision, the ball was released (but not "voluntarily" -- that doesn't matter).

In the case play, yes, it's assuming action that would be a "held ball" if it happened during inbounds play.

Just another example of the need for re-working the rule book.

This makes sense. Just wish the rule was more clear.

What isn't clear about rule 4-42-5--"The throw-in <b>ends</b> when the <b>passed</b> ball touches....."?:confused:

You never had a "passed" ball in the play being discussed, so the throw-in never ended. Therefore, the arrow doesn't change.

Y'alls are just over-thinking this one way too much.

So you're saying I was right!

Word.

Shut up.

Word.

Wait a minute!! You said the ball should go to B. That's NOT right.

Careful, you'll knock Dan off his perch.

Woo-hoooo!!! ROFL!

I was talking about my posts 22, 28, 31, and 33. Without the throwin ending, A should keep the arrow. If the throwin ends here without a pass, then B should keep the ball and the case book is wrong.

Dan has a perch?
http://www.lindenhurstil.org/lakesco...0Perch%20n.jpg

Kinky!

Ah. This thread does get a little confusing. Even the perch reference is a little ambiguous. Is it piscine as JR alludes to, or rather psittacine as from Tony?

Hey! How did I get dragged into this?!?

<font size=1>Psst...hey, rocky...picture me sittin' on your shoulder and whispering a few words in your ear...not to mention me holding on tight...</font size> :D

That's funny, I had JR pegged for a Taurus.

Psittacine on you.

I can imagine you sitting <b>down</b>.

As for the holding on part, whatever floats your boat. Nothing the matter with having a short one, I guess.

Oh, yea?!?

Well Word to you, too!