ok, here is the scenario(hypothetical).
tie ball game, 14 sec. in the game. kansas vs duke
you are lead table side, ted valentine is trail, and john clougherty is slot.
kansas' best player is handling the ball and attempts a drive to the basket from between you and ted valentine clearly on strong side of the court. as he picks up his dribble he takes 2 steps and has the ball low in his mid section with both hands. the play develops and rolls to where you have a clear angle on the play. shane boozer(duke) swings up and hits the ball loose but the kansas player regains control high in his chest area. jon clougherty blows his whistle and calls a travel.
what would you do in this scenario?

be serious with your answer, and put some thought into it.

I think you're asking this:

C calls a travel on A1 but L clearly saw the ball was batted
loose by B1 before the violation. The play was solidly in the L's area. What should the L do?

Serious, thoughtful answer:

Earlier this season I had a similar situation and I did not
correct it, or even question it until later in the locker
room. I like to think next time this happens I would huddle
with my partner and discuss immediately. I suspect my
partner would tell me that he saw the travel clearly and the
call would stand as is 99 out of 100 times.

I get the ball for the throw-in going the other way, glance at both partners, and the table to see who wants a time-out.
mick

Excellent and correct way to handle this situation. The evaluator will make a note of it in his game report to the officials and the conference suppervisor. You will aslo discuss it in your post-game meeting with your partners.

tony,

I think I agree with mick and Mark on this. I'm going to get the game going again and save any discussion of this play for the locker room. (Especially since this is apparently my 1st D1 game! ;) )

Chuck

I agree totally. If John's got a travel, I've got a travel.

BTW, it's Carlos Boozer, not Shane Boozer.

I knew something wasn't quite right with crew's post! Carlos Boozer, Shane Battier - so apparently this is in a dream because Shane Boozer doesn't play for Duke.

I'm going to say that I must have missed the travel that did occur and go with the call as made by the C.

You didn't need to add the word "hypothetical" if you put me in with these guys! The only sentences that precede this situation are simply ludicrous.

"A crew with an 85-year old veteran, an 87-year-old hack, and a 65-year-old grandma? Sure!! No problem!!"

Alternatively,

"We are going to bring up a 45-year-old woman who has only done JV, because that "motherly" instinct makes the boys feel so much more relaxed and at home on the floor!!"

Or, "Oh, no, the woman that was supposed to work tonight has sprained her ankle in the parking lot; this game needs 'the woman's touch' and you are the only experienced ref who lives near the Rose Garden. Could you dash down here and fill in this evening?"

i dont get it

Hey, here's a good one. Okay, so, you're the bus driver and you head out from the barn in a 45-seater on route 35. Now at the first stop, 5 people get on. There's no one at the next stop but at the third stop, 3 people get on....

Crew --

sorry, I'm feeling a little giddy this morning. It must be from all the great 6th grade agems this weekend.

I was just hypothesizing what rationale would put ME, a 45-year-old housewife with 3 years reffing experience, on the same crew with Ted Valentine and John Clougherty. Hypothetical is the only word that could describe the situation!!

55 :)

Close enough. The way my dad told it the answer would be either "blue, brown or hazel."

Oops!
 

I meant hazel

here is what i would do.
since i had definate knowledge that the ball became loose because of the defensive player a trveling violation is not possible. i would immediately approach the calling official and say, "i have information to add." i then would say, "i am 100% sure the defense knocked the ball loose therefor he could not have traveled." i now would allow him to make the decision to stick with the travel or go inadvertent whistle. if he chose to stay with the travel i would say, "i will take full responsibility for the play." if he still wants to go with the travel then there is nothing more i can do to get the play correct.

the important issue here is to get the play right. this is what i would do in this situation and would be very disappointed in myself if i did not have the balls to step up and do all that i can to get the play correct.

Crew, how is this situation different than GPS #7 - "The Big Picture?" :confused:

in the post gps-7, a foul had occurred, marginal, but yet a foul. i just blew who fouled who in my mind. the best play was to pass on the foul but i got very rattled and blew the hell out of it. i wish one of my partners would have come to me with info about out of bounds or something better, but that did not happen. i did not obviously miss a play, though i did miss it. the play gps-8 is an obvious miss with partners that recognized it and have the ability offer info to possibly bail out the calling official. no one knew to bail me out in gps-7.

I agree that if you have definite knowledge that you should at least go to your partner and say 'I have information to add'. Then, let your partner decide. My question is, if the play is going to the hole between the T and the L, why is the Slot seeing it?

Because this is one of crew's crazy game play situations.

You'll get used to them after a while.

it is just a scenario i dreamed up. why does any call out of their primary? lack of trust? lack of experience? brain fart? it happens from time to time.

why
 

this is to:
dan_ref, mick, mark t. denucci, chuckelias, bktballref, and mark dexter.
why specifically would you do as you stated in your post and not try to correct an obvious mistake?

bktballref-"if john has a travel then i have a travel" this statement shows that you respect and trust john clougherty. but wouldnt you offer help if he obviously missed an out of bounds play?

on the other side: jpageref, specifically why would you do as you stated in your post instead of putting the ball in play and moving on?

just curious.......

Re: why
 

Remember guys,you will be judged on your answers.TH's personal best is 5.8 to date.Giving the additional incentive involved here,expectations are high that he will surpass that!Points will be added for originality.GO FOR THE GOLD!:D

Re: why
 

<i>"...as he picks up his dribble he takes 2 steps and has the ball low in his mid section with both hands...."</i>

This is a judgement call. I won't question him about any fouls that he had called. I won't question his travel calls.
Hey, crew,<u> maybe I missed something</u> !

Re: Re: why
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

This is a judgement call. I won't question him about any fouls that he had called. I won't question his travel calls. Hey, crew,<u> maybe I missed something</u> !

on this play, lets assume you you have not "missed something".

Re: Re: Re: why
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crew

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Quote: This is a judgement call. I won't question him about any fouls that he had called. I won't question his travel calls. Hey, crew,<u> maybe I missed something</u> ! on this play, lets assume you you have not "missed something".

crew,
As an official, I do not assume I am perfect on any play.
If I were to assume perfection, I wouldn't be me. I may be you! ;)
mick

jpageref,
I hate it when it happens, but every now and then, (<i>I call it the parting of the Red Sea</i>) the players pull apart and all of a sudden this perfectly, unalduterated view of a play 25-30' away is way too much to handle by just enjoying the view.
Although I am not sure I've done it in months, seeing that play so clearly makes me go, "Tweet!" ("Dang it!!!!!")
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: why
 

I like it!The judge from France awards you a 5.9!C'est formidable!:D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 23rd, 2002 at 01:37 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: why
 

JR,
I thought you were at that 117 game 13 gym tourney.
Get back to work. ;)
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: why
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: why
 

[/B][/QUOTE]Yup,the representative of UPper Mesabia is our current leader,and it looks like he will be tough to beat!:D
Btw,I am working.I answer the damn phone every time it rings.No major screw-ups,YET!

Re: why
 

As a fellow graduate of that fine institution of higher learning as well a Division I-AA football power (go Youngstown State University Penquins), if John Cloughty has a travel, so do I. And we will talk about it later.

If I called this travel with 5 seconds left in a tie game and my partner told me in the locker room after the game that he clearly saw it was deflected and choose not to come in and tell me I would be extremely upset. Step up and be a good partner and come to him. This is similar to an out of bounds call that is clearly missed. Obviously, we can not come to our partners every time we know a play is missed, such as a foul, but on this situation it can be worked out nice and clean. Don't let the losing coach hang his hat on this blown call and blast the officials in the press conference. If the play is overruled the coach it went against will be upset at first but will have nothing to say about it in the press conference because the replay will clearly show the ball was defelected by the defense. Use big picture officiating.

Re: Re: Re: Re: why
 

mick,
i am not trying to persecute your officiating. i gave a scenario with absolutes and was curious as to how other refs would handle the situation and why!

i am not insinuating that you miss calls. just wanting to know your reasoning?

let me redirect the scenario: same play but the ball is obviously tipped out of bounds by duke and your partner signalled and said duke ball. what would you do in this scenario?

Your response to your question is perfect
 

I agree 100% with you on how to handle this situation. I bothers me as an official, that one partner with more information on the call would not speak up. I respect this behavior and the players respect it also.

Eli,if you get a chance,please check out the thread from 2/7 called GPS-7--The Big Picture.Would you call crew's handling of that situation "big picture officiating",also?I'm just wondering what "big picture" encompasses.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 24th, 2002 at 05:28 AM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: why
 

crew,
Who's line? ;)
I do not equate a tipped ball play to a judgement for traveling.
For the tipped ball, I will quickly go and tell my partner.
mick

mick

[Edited by mick on Feb 24th, 2002 at 06:42 AM]

If I have knowledge I am coming to my partners and giving the info to him. I did this on an out of bounds call this weekend. Nothing different here. Just trying to get the plays right. No egos. Because there might be a day when that same guy that I helped out will come and save my day when I goof something up or didn't see a play completely from start to finish.

I had a charge with 39 seconds left in a college game this weekend. The charge went against the team down 5 points. I would hope that if my partners thought that the ball was released they would have come to me and say hey I am 100% sure the ball was released and I will take responsibility for the play. However, I was lucky (or maybe even good enough) on this play and got it correct. But if I wasn't I hope they would step up and say we better score the basket and call a push and go to the other end and shoot the penalty if needed.

See the Kobe Bryant buzzer beater earlier last week. The two officials in lead and trail were on the ball side. The slot official away from the play came over and added information by saying I am totally 1000% sure it was still in Kobe's hands (in this case fingertips) and the shot is no good. Great team work officiating that applies to this particular thread.

Dang it, isn't anybody listening. How can you not trust the judgement of a graduate (John C.) of Youngstown State University. And I am not trying to make fun of my alma mater. We Penquins just have great football teams every year and now The Ohio State University will have championship football teams because we have lent the Buckeyes our coach.

Eli, what if your parnter just flat misses the call. He had the wrong pivot foot, for example. Are you still going to him and tell him the player didn't travel? According to the posts here, there wouldn't be any difference.

This apples to oranges. What if they came to you and said, "That wasn't a charge, it was a block."? What are you going to do? There is a difference.

Mark, John must be the busiest official in the country. Very time I turn the TV on, there he is! :)

This terminology is called team work officiating. I guess it would be a somewhat new term depending on where you live in the country. I would suppose if you lived in the western part of the country you might not understand or have been exposed to this philosophy.

Are we in this to get plays right or pat the coaches and/or our partners on their backs? If I called a travel and a partner of mine clearly saw the ball was tipped from behind, I would change the call. ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR THE GAME!!!!!

I had this very similar play when I first started officiating. I was working a 2 person game in an AAU 14 and Under tourney. The ball was tipped and the referee from behind called a travel in transition and sent it the other way. Of course, I didn't change it because HE WAS A VETERAN OFFICIAL and all that stuff. Plus, I had no experience, education and training back then. NOW I WOULD CLEARLY CHANGE THE CALL. ITS THE PROPER THING TO DO FOR THE GAME.

Does that mean you can't or won't answer my question?

Well, now, Mr. B. Barnaky, thanks so much fer explaynin' this to us'n's. Way Owt West heer, we're still diggin' the ball owt of the peach basket after each and ev'ry shot. When we're ready to jet on up into the 21st cintery, we'all will be givin' you a call to hop yer pony and ride on owt this-a-way. This kind'a larnin' is jest more than we kin handle all at onct-like.

Juulie,you just broke me up-at 4:30am.Just woke up and I hope I didn't wake my wife up laughing.The judge from France awards you a 6.0!:DBtw,I think I first heard about the concept of "team work officiating" in my first year of reffing-which was 43 years ago.I guess I'm just lucky that I FINALLY found someone with the knowledge to make me finally understand the philosophy.

Just trying to share information to those who don't understand the concept. Obviously, from the snide and sarcastic remarks above, you have heard of this terminology before.

Okay, okay, I'm sorry. I was not in a very good mood when I got home from my games yesterday, and I guess I sort of over-reacted. You may not have intended to sound condescending, but I got an earful yesterday from a coach who I guess doesn't have a lot of respect for women. Your male "self-confidence" felt like more of same. I'm just having a hard time feeling like a member of a team when the coaches, and most fans, all assume I'm incompetent before the game even starts, and beg my partner to "help me out." From this point on, I can't win, and my partner can't lose. It was not a good day on the bball floor.

[Edited by rainmaker on Feb 25th, 2002 at 10:36 AM]

your getting into totally different scenarios which do not apply to the original post. the original play was a play that information can be given to correct the situation. an official cant come in and say "i thought the defense slid in on that one" after the calling official has already called a charge.

stick with the original post and try not to add "what ifs" and other scenarios.

If I'm sure and it's my area...
 

I'll probably just ask my P "Did you see the ball knocked loose by the Defense?" Thus giving him the opportunity to change his mind. I don't like the "I have definite knowledge that the ball was knocked loose..." approach. You don't give the guy who made the call a chance to defend his call, you basically insist he call it your way. By coming with a question, you let him know that:

a) You saw something different/additional.
b) You don't agree with his call.
c) You will respect his call.
d) He may reverse it.
e) It's his call to change or not.

Most likely, he will infer from your question the above mentioned points as well as:

a) Hey, I blew that call.
b) I have an "out" now.
c) My P is not trying to show me up.

That said, I generally will not question a travel call, but this sitch is a little different. Namely, when the violation gets called by my partner, its usually in his area or in a grey area of shared coverage or I realize that his view was a good one.

Maybe you pregamed something like "If I'm L and there's a drive in the lane, I'll be watching up high for contact, the travel can come from the outside official..." etc. etc.

I'm sorry, but since when did you become the person who tells posters what they can and cannot post?

FYI, I didn't change the situation. Your buddy Barnaky was the one that changed us from apples to oranges. He brought in the charge situation where a fellow official comes in and says the the shot was released prior to the contact. I simply ask him what would happen if the other official came in a said it was a block. There's no difference. It's the same prinicple. If you don't want to deal with my post, then don't read it!

Quote:

an official cant come in and say "i thought the defense slid in on that one" after the calling official has already called a charge.

Thank you! My point exactly. Thank you for answering the question that your buddy refused to answer. If another official can't come in and say "that was a block," he has no business coming and and saying, "That wasn't a travel."

I have not refused to answer the question. I just have been a little bit busy lately and haven't spent night and day on this website. Finishing my regular season assignments and looking forward to post season play. Also, trying to work at my job some and spend time with my family as well. These things are important.

Anyways, I would not come in and change my partners block charge play. However, I would come in and give information on this travel GPS situation and would also give information as to whether a shot has been released on a block/charge play in a college game.

Also, please don't assume I am anyone's "buddy."

Helping your partner when it involves out-of-bounds plays, two or three-point field goal attempts, getting the correct shooter, or getting the correct players involved in a fight is one thing.

But, attempting to change judgement calls is another thing, even when you know that your partner is 200% wrong. There is not an official who has made a contribution to this discussion group who has not worked a game in a two-man crew who had a partner who did nothing but watch the ball. You know the type. You are the Trail, the ball is five feet above the top of the key and the poing guard stops his dribble and comes to a stop and it looks strange but the guard did nothing illegal, and tweeeeeeeeet!!!!!! goes your partner's whistle and he gives the travel signal. You cannot wait for half time to come so that you can rearrange his brain.

I think I made my point clear in my first post in this thread. The game evaluator will no doubt make a note of the play, and as a team you will discuss it either at half time or after the game. We all blow a play at least once a season, that's life, we all struggle to have the perfect game and we all know how difficult that is to accomplish. We have all had the moments when we wished that we could have sucked the air back into the whistle but the game goes on and over the course of a game we make hundreds of yes/no decisions. As a structural engineer, I can tell you that officiating basketball is not rocket science (neither is officiating soccer for that matter). Maybe it is because I have been involved in basketball as a player, coach, and official since I was nine (I am now 50), I think that basketball is one of the easiest sports (after soccer) to officiate.

The play happened, and life goes on, besides it was John Cloughty (go YSU Penquins) who made the call, I think that we can all give him a little slack, after all he has earned it.

What is the actual difference,in your opinion,between being willing to help your partner out in a violation or shot-release situation--and not being willing to help him out in a foul situation?In all the cases,you feel that you saw something that your partner didn't.In all the cases,you want to get the call right,if you can.In all the cases,you are going to let your partner make the final determination after you give him the info.
Note:This one is a serious question.I'm not being a smart-***,and I am interested in your logic.

Mark,can you send me some of whatever you are using?The damn game drives me nuts some days,and it seems to get harder every year I do it.:D

Ever officiate lacrosse? Much more demanding physically, but one of the easiest sports for exercising judgment.

By the way, if you think the basketball rules are unclear in certain places, try reading the lacrosse book. It's horrible.

Chuck

It's blacklungs.com or some such thing :eek:

I'm sorry if I insulted you.

Help me understand why you think it would be okay to come in and ask your partner if he saw B1 touch the ball on the travel call but it wouldn't be okay to come in if you thought B1 blocked or B2 had a hand in A1's back on a charge.

Personally, I'm having trouble seeing the difference.

bktballref--in the prescribed situation the travel call is judgement, the tip from the defensiveman negates the violation. the calling official more than likely did not see the tip and therefor judged it a violation. also we as officials are not coming to the calling official changing the call. we would be giving additional information to the calling official and allowing him to change the call. if we were to do this when ever we thought our partners made a judgement mistake our credibility would be shot. coming to our partner in the first scenario, it would be a game saver and good for the game. coming in to question judgement in your scenario would not be good for the game. (as mentioned earlier "use big picture officiating")

physicsref--i see what you are saying, coming with a question instead of a statement. the reason i would come to my partner as described is because it seems to portray more confidence. if someone were to come to me with a question-my perception would be to doubt you and even think that you doubt yourself. but you may be presenting a better way to approach someone. i guess it depends on personalities. this is a good thought!

I'm sorry but my comments were for BBarnaky. I'm not really interested in your explanation. Thanks anyway.

Jurassic Ref, big picture refereeing to me means to not complicate simple situations, to go with the obvious, and when you have a choice of two scenarios you go with the one that everyone will buy instead of creating controversy. Of course, there are situations when you have to go with something complicated or odd or what people won't understand but this should be done rarely. For example, if a defender brushes a player on the arm in the shooting motion and then the offensive player crashes over a defender and levels him to the ground then go with the offensive foul, the obvious play to the players, coaches, and fans instead of trying to sell some first foul. Nobody will complain about the offensive foul. You will have lots of complaints about calling the hit to the arm. I have never done what crew did in G.P.S. 7. However, I was in the game with crew and I am so glad he did it because we would of lost a lot of respect with that crazy call. Nobody said a word about what he did. The foul he had was not there and there was a borderline "on the back" foul that was believable to sell, so that is what he went with. This is not something I would tell people to go out and do, however this was a weird situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Eli, what if your parnter just flat misses the call. He had the wrong pivot foot, for example. Are you still going to him and tell him the player didn't travel? According to the posts here, there wouldn't be any difference. Quote: Originally posted by BBarnaky I had a charge with 39 seconds left in a college game this weekend. The charge went against the team down 5 points. I would hope that if my partners thought that the ball was released they would have come to me and say hey I am 100% sure the ball was released and I will take responsibility for the play. This apples to oranges. What if they came to you and said, "That wasn't a charge, it was a block."? What are you going to do? There is a difference.

Basketball Ref, as I stated earlier, coming to your partners cannot be done on every judgement situation. In my opinion this is a nice clean situation where it can be done. I have done it and seen it done in games before and the players and coaches buy it, just like they buy a change of an out of bounds call. If you come to your partner about a missed foul or that you believe a player's pivot foot did not move coaches and players will not buy this and this could be done on several calls throughout the game. However, this situation, where an official calls a travel and the other official is 100% sure that the ball was deflected by the defense is something that happens rarely. Well, let me say it happens rarely in the pro game and DI. However, it might happen more in high school or rec ball and maybe you don't feel this should be done in those situations and your probably right. Please don't take those last couple sentences to be degrading to high school basketball or rec ball. On block/charge situations we are taught to come to our partner if it involves him or her missing it due to the restricted area because this can be done nice and clean. However, if the restricted area is not involved I cannot come to my partner because people will not buy this change and it cannot be done nice and clean.

Eli,excellent post!Your explanation was pretty well what I was taught many years ago.The idea of "big picture" officiating has been around longer than I've been around.Several different names have been used for it over the years,and a lotta guys do teach it and practise it(including many high school officials).The idea certainly isn't new.You partially made the point that I was trying to make in crew's sitch.Do it to keep you and your partners' butts out of trouble if you have to,but don't recommend it to be used all the time.In other words,don't look for a chance to use it.The procedure should be saved for the times when it is appropriate.If you try to use it too often,then you're using it as a cop-out--and you could be a factor in the game when you shouldn't be.It's OK in "iffy" or fairly obvious situations,but if you use it to walk away from the tough call that also happens to be the RIGHT call,then you're not doing your job.That was the point I wanted to make.

Thanks for the reply, Eli. In general, I'm opposed to this type of action in a high school game. Unfortunately, high school coaches are not going to be as forgiving in this situation as pro or college coaches might be. In such a situation, the "rookie" on the crew is going to look bad. And when I say look bad, I mean that official's reputation is going to be damaged with the coaches involved. Whether he makes the call or gives help, he's screwed. I don't think this is any different than a spot throw-in violation that the administering official blows. You just have to live or die with it. It's not the end of the world. Just MHO.

Looking forward to seeing you on the 8th.

this is what joe forte wrote on a different site. the only thing incorrect is the jumpball situation. in the original post the offensive player regains control of the ball before the whistle is blown. i beleive that he concurs with what eroe39, barnaky, and myself previously stated. it is good insight from a great official.

Thanks for the post crew. I believe he has "slightly" a bit more credibility than you, eroe39, and myself and maybe some of the "posters" on this site will believe him. Thanks for the insight. Great explanation from a great referee. I totally agree with what he posted. Good stuff.

"In such a situation, the "rookie" on the crew is going to look bad. And when I say look bad, I mean that official's reputation is going to be damaged with the coaches involved. Whether he makes the call or gives help, he's screwed."

This is why so many officials are taught to "referee safe."
I've heard too many stories of officials being outcasts simply because they tried to help their crew "do the right thing." Unfortunately there are egos out there that won't allow decisions to be questioned.
My first year of JUCO ball my supervisor told me to go out
and "not do anything to get yourself noticed" basically
referee safe.
I had a situation in a game where my partner called a T on a player for hanging on the rim. From my position in trail, I notice that two players are underneath him. So I go to him
and offer information. He stuck with his call. I later had a taunting technical on this same player (after looking at tape, it was not a good call) which now resulted in his ejection. My point is, if my partner had accepted my input on the hanging on the rim, (which on tape was not justified as clearly players were underneath him)
the ejection wouldn't have happened. (For another post we can discuss game awareness which I was lacking when I called the second T on this player. I had forgotten that he already had one and would not have called it if I had realized this.)My personal feeling is if my parnter is sticking his neck out to come to me with added information,
99.5 percent of the time, I will go with his information.
That's why I enjoy working with the Pro officials I've had the priveledge to work with. They are concerned with getting the play right, rather than feeding their ego's.
Drake

Thanks for the confirmation Drake. I wrote the exact same thing in a reply previous to yours. Your remarks are right on! ;)

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 6th, 2002 at 04:59 PM]

That may be the reason for the quotation marks. You want a by-line too? ;)

drake.
you make an absolute good point. telling a rookie to go out and referee safe is very good advice as it has been given to me as well. unfortunatley in college leagues veteran officials have tender egos which prevent the game from being officiated at the best level. most officials would rather be wrong and have noone bring it up, than to have a younger official try to get the play right. also coaches in college leagues have to much power as well. if an official does try to get the play right the coach who is now not benefitting from the incorrect play will probly scratch the younger official who is doing the right thing. it is a situation that will determine determine ethics, whether it be the official, supervisor, or coach.

These are all valid points. There are scratch lists at both the high school and college levels.
The ideas that myself and others have presented here are just merely ideas that we have learned from others.
Best advice to new officials is to learn how to referee and just work the primary that your suppose to be in.
One thing I have learned at the college level, is that there are many other factors out there (besides just getting plays right) that will determine your success (or failure) in this business. It is unfortunate but very true. Something I have a hard time dealing with. But such is life.

Why? Either he deserved the T for this particular action or he didn't. By thinking you wouldn't call it if you think he already had one he "didn't deserve" you are engaging in "make-up calls."

Did you also not call any travels because you thought your partner called one incorrectly earlier?

Of course I know the difference in severity between calling a travel and a technical that results in ejection, but the basic principle remains the same. Do not make "make-up calls" and let each call stand on its own merit.

The player's actions, not yours, must be the determining factor in how the outcome of the game is decided.

Mark,
It was a "borderline" taunting call that could have been
handled with a "kind word" or two said to the player.
He really did not deserve to be thrown out of the game for
it. If this would have been his first T, ok. But not
worthy of a second T.

I'm confused.

NCAA rules:
Hanging on the rim == indirect T.

Taunting == direct T.

Why the ejection?

Interesting point BobJenkins. I totally did not read that post closely. If that is the case, hanging on the rim, under the NCAA, would be indirect. A player needs two directs for an ejection, one flagrant, three indirects, or a combination of indirects/directs.

Good pick up on this point.

You do bring up a good point. One which I don't have
a good answer for.:(
At the time none of us considered it. Although I think later
in talking to our Supervisor that was brought up.
Mea Culpa.;)

Drake,
During your first year of JUCO it probably was a technical. ;)
mick

Mark,
It was a "borderline" taunting call that could have been
handled with a "kind word" or two said to the player.

Then why didn't you do that? If it was worthy of a T, call it. If not, then don't. You can't be "half pregnant". Calling it a "borderline" taunt implies to me that you really weren't sure if you should call it or not - but the fact remains that it must have been bad enough that you did.

He really did not deserve to be thrown out of the game for it. If this would have been his first T, ok. But not
worthy of a second T.

A T is a T if deserved. The fact he already had one is irrelevant. You're right when you say he didn't deserve to be thrown out of the game for this, but he does deserve to be thrown out of the game for getting two, which he did. That's why technical fouls that are not flagrant are cumulative. After all, it's his behavior and actions that are what determine what happens to him.

Notice I'm not addressing the issue of indirect vs. direct under NCAA rules because that's not the point of your post.

Mark,
An official must go through responses 1 through 9. 10, which is a technical foul. 1 through 9 responses are other options that an offical can use as well. Everybody has responded in situations by giving a Technical or not giving one and should have. After reflecting on the particular situation, I agree with Drake here that another response (1 through 9) COULD have been used to prevent the ejection. If I have to eject a player/coach I want everybody in the gym to know and understand why because his actions were so severe and we had no other choice but to respond with response #10.

I realized that. :)
I just for got to put the ;) at the end.
But I've corrected that oversight! :p