when to start 10 second count
 

This is from another forum...I'd like to see what others think. Rules citations will be appreciated.

What’s your ruling on this?

A1 is dribbling in his frontcourt and B1 deflects the ball into the backcourt. The ball (a) hits the floor in A’s backcourt (b) B1 then muffs it, (c) then A1 muffs it (still in the backcourt) (d) and then A2 gains possession deep in the backcourt. The question is when does the 10 second count begin? After a, b, c or d?

The answer is (a) and it was discussed here just yesterday. You can search for the thread if you'd like to find it.

While team control still remains with A (since B did not gain possession), I would not start the 10 sec count until "d", when A2 has possession again in their backcourt.

You shoulda read the other thread......:D

No loss of team control by A. The count starts as soon as the ball has backcourt status....ergo-(a)

Interesting JDW3018, I will begin researching as well.

Let me tag along on this thread if I may...

Just some things to think about:

When would you start your backcourt count on a throw-in when the player lets the ball roll along the court (in the backcourt) so as not to start the clock?

What if the ball just rested there...how long could the ball rest there before you chopped the clock or started a count?

Yep, havent been on alot lately. Let me go do some reading. :(

When is team control first established in the backcourt? Go with D. A team can not be in continous control of the ball in their backcourt for more than 10 seconds. Rule 9-8.

But then again, it seems that team control begins in backcourt as soon as the ball gains backcourt status. So A is valid, and it happens first, so I can see going with that.

1. When team control is established by A in the backcourt - when an A player first controls the ball.
2. The clock starts when the ball is legally touched inbounds, so not until that happens. The 10 second backcourt count starts when A has control in the backcourt, so not until that happens.

Okay... it is true. JDW nailed it. Good job!! By rule Team A retains control (that was not an issue) but it does not say that Team A must have possession, which is where the misconception is. By rule Team A can not have Team control in their backcourt for more than 10 secs... That is what you have when the ball touches Team A's BC. Got it. thx

OK then ...
 

... so Team A has control, so during this loose ball situation, any foul on an A player is a Team control foul? I would venture to say that I've never seen a Team Control Foul called when players are scrambling for a ball.

Yes, a foul during this "loose ball" would be a TC Foul on any player from A. Several people have argued that the NFHS should institute a "loose ball foul" rule for this scenario, but I don't see that happening.

I've called a TC foul in this type of situation many times.

Or a time out being granted when a ball is being passed between teammates

Not sure who you're replying to, BEAREF, but a TO during a live ball in play may only legally be granted to a team whose player has player control. Team control alone does not give a team the right to be granted a TO.

Very interesting. I'll keep my eyes out for this.

So, if B1 deflects a pass into the backcourt and has a few steps on A1 and a potential layup, but A1 in his haste to catch up, bumps B1 to the floor, it is a Team Control Foul, thus no free throws if in the bonus. Lets hope I have a very understanding Coach B if that layup could have sealed a win.

You've got it right. And don't worry about Coach B being understanding, just explain the rule to him and move on. :D

FYI...this is from a rules clinician in Minnesota...

e: 10 second count
by MSHSL Bball Clinician on Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:05 pm

About three days ago, I sent out emails with the initial question on this thread pertaining to when the 10-second count starts. I sent it to five of MSHSL's Basketball Rules Clinicians including the head clinician and two college clinicians. These are all people that have been in a clinician position for many years. Based on their responses, you will see that it was not an easy question to answer. Here are the results of their responses:

Six answered "D"......The 10-second count starts in this play when a Team A player secured control of the ball in the backcourt.
Two answered "A".....The 10-second count starts when the ball hit the floor in the backcourt.

Not a single person could find the rule in the rulebook or case book that references this play. The head clinician said that this particular play would be an exception to the team control rule.

One of the college clinicians said that there is a difference between frontcourt team control and re-establishing the 10-second count in the backcourt. In other words ...an exception to the team control rule.

I tried to email the question to the National High School Federation, but their website said that all questions pertaining to rule interpretations must come to them through a state's head clinician. I am not sure at this time if our head clinician is going to send it to them or not.

Keep in mind that new rules are added every year because something new came up that wasn't covered under the present rules. This play may fit that description. Rules are made with the idea that they are reasonable and have some common sense.

Hypothetical play: A1 is dribbling in the frontcourt. The ball is tipped into the backcourt by B1. The ball gets "muffed" several times until Team A gains control. Let's say that 8 seconds came off of the clock after the ball touched the floor in the backcourt. If the 10-second count would start when the ball hit the floor, that would only give Team A two seconds to get the ball into the front court. To me, that's not reasonable. That is why I think that the 10-second count starts when Team A gained control.

I may be wrong, as well as several other clinicians. We won't know for sure until someone finds the play in print or we get an exact ruling from the National Federation.

Remember that this is not a discussion item. This is how we are going to rule on the play until further notice.

If and When I get more information pertaining to this play, I'll pass it along ASAP.

MSHSL Bball CLinician.

Shocking...this is not even a complicated rule.

The rule says that a team may not be in continuous team control of a ball in the backcourt for more than 10 seconds. Team control is clearly defined (I can't see how there could be a question of team control). Backcourt location is clearly defined (I really can't see how this would be in question). That's all you need to know.

There is no exception to team control....the terms on which it ends are clearly defined and none of them have occurred.

Ball hits in the backcourt, the 10-count starts.


No new rules about team control or a backcourt violation (that would affect this situation) have been added/changed in forever. This situation has happened time and time again every year. It's not an oddball situation at all. If there were a change that was desired due to an oversite in the rule, we would have seen it long ago.

Sure it's reasonable. Team A wasted 8 seconds of the count by not being able to grab the ball. I'm sure team B had something to do with that and team B deserves to get the violation called against A.

Everything needed is there and unambiguous. We don't need a case play for every single possible situation when the rules, when put together, are clear and complete.

This ruling sounds like something California would issue. Wow.

Edited to include - as this apparently is a widely misunderstood rule in this situation at both the high school and college levels, maybe a case play or two are in order.

IMHO this is only misunderstood by those who are unfamiliar with a recent innovation called the rule book. As Camron plainly pointed out, all the relevant rules, including the definitions, are clear and unambiguous.

What isn't quite so clear is whether this clinician just genuinely doesn't understand what's printed, or if he's hedging simply because he can imagine a situation or two where he personally wouldn't care for the outcome of enforcing the rule. :rolleyes:

Amen.

Silly monkeys.

I am only the messenger here. This is from a rules clinician in Minnesota....

Re: 10 second count
by MSHSL Bball Clinician on Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:26 pm

Kevin Merkle from the MSHSL just emailed me. He sent the question to Mary Struckhoff. She is an Associate Director at the National Federation. Her response was that the rules committee would look at this play in April and put a response in the Casebook.

MSHSL Bball Clinician

As I posted on the NFHS forum...
 

...Any ruling that's contrary to the count beginning when the ball obtains BC status will require a rule change. Because that is how the rule presently reads.

That hasn't stopped Mary and the current rules committee (backcourt violation). :D

Scary, isn't it?

That's exactly what I was thinking also.

Ohio & Minnesota State Rules folks believe that it takes control by A1 to start the 10 second count & not back court status according to Rule 9.8

Are there any other folks here who can check with their respective State Rules folks for their opinion opinion??? :confused:

This appears not to be enforced consistently & it does happen frequently...