Backcourt violation rule change? (over and back)
 

NFHS--Yesterday, we had a girl dribbling up the sideline in the backcourt. A couple of feet before she gets to half-court, she jump stops, then pivots so that one foot crosses the half-court line. So she still has 1-2 points in the backcourt (as she's pivoting, the ball may have crossed or it may not have--I was paying more attention to the pivot foot and the action around the ball handler as she was being trapped).

As the ball handler pivots back to being completely in the back court (all 3 points), B's coach goes nuts and wants an over-and-back call.

I wasn't even thinking backcourt violation because the ballhandler maintained at least one point in the backcourt.

B's coach is saying there was a rule change this year that the ballhandler didn't have to have all 3 points over.

I just checked the Federation site and looked at the rules changes for 2007-2008 and I don't see anything close to that.

Did I miss something?

If I only had a BRAIN!
 

The only thing that was missing was the coach's brain.
Did he look like a scarecrow?
Was he from Kansas?

You made the right call, but for the wrong reason.
Once the player picks up the ball and ceases to be a dribbler, the three points principle no longer applies. That rule is only for a player who is dribbling the ball. BTW it has not changed.

The relevant rules for this play are the ones governing ball and player location. The player location rule is 4-35. Articles 1 and 2 state that if the player is touching the floor in the backcourt, then that player is in the backcourt. When this is combined with 4-4-1, the appropriate ball location rule, it becomes clear that the ball and player remained in the backcourt during the entire play. Therefore, no violation of 9-9, the backcourt rule, could have taken place.

PS The 10-second count should continue.

Yes, you listened to a coach.

If the player jump-stopped by picking up her dribble, jumping off one foot and landing on two, and then pivots - I have a travel.

Backcourt violation
 

Thanks for responding. The jump stop was fine, though, and the pivot was fine. The only issue at hand is the backcourt situation.

No, if she jump stopped and pivoted it is a travel. It is not fine.

As always, your statement depends on the definition of "jump stop". If she jumped, caught the ball (ending her dribble) and landed on two feet -- one type of jump stop -- and then pivoted, that's perfectly legal.

That's what i have if I understand this correctly.

See casebook play 4.44.2 SITUATION A

And where do I find this "jump stop" definition in the rule book? :p

A jump stop is defined by the rule book, it is not my definition or yours. If you mean something else, other than a jump stop, use another term. That is like says it depends on what you mean by a dribble.

I could be wrong but I do not think the term "jump stop" even appears in the fed book.

Take a look at fed 4-44-2, note the difference between a1 and b2.

Look at ncaa 4-44 for a much clearer version.

Then over the back is "defined by" the rule book also. It's when B1 jumps out of his circle of verticallity and pushes A1 from behind.

zoiks!! in a girls game?
 

Maybe we start a closely guarded count...:rolleyes: :eek:

You are a new official, so perhaps you are just making a joke or perhaps you aren't aware that CA is one of the very few states that employs a shot clock at the HS level and hence doesn't have a bc 10-sec count in girls games, but does have a closely guarded count there. Most of the rest of the states in the nation don't do it the way that CA does.

you know which one it is...
 

...ignorance on my part.

wurd!

Amazingly, I find this to be the case with a large number of officials from CA. Since all the games that they work and see on TV (NCAA and NBA) employ a shot clock, the concept of conducting a basketball game without one is hard for them to comprehend.

They are flat-out shocked to learn that 43 of the 50 states do NOT use a shot clock for HS games! :eek:

Hopefully, these last two posts blew your mind this morning. It's always fun to have one of those eye-opening moments. ;)

I remember how shocked I was to learn that there were states that do use the shot clock in HS basketball. It was just a foreign concept to me!

As Dan_ref pointed out, "jump stop" is not defined in the NFHS rulebook, although it does describe both types of jump stops in the traveling definition.

Some people (mostly coaches, in my experience) define a jump stop as: jump, catch, land on two feet simultaneously.

Other people (mostly officials, in my experience) define a jump stop as: jump, catch, land on one foot, jump, land on two feet simultaneously.

It's important to understand the distinction and to understand which definition a person is using.

Hey Nevada..
 

Your post made me realize that for the CYO games that I do, there is no shot clock, so applying Calif HS girls rules exception is inappropriate. Just checked with my CYO assignor and got it confirmed that we play boys hs rules for girls games.

Been doing it wrong all season. I think other refs have as well.
Now THAT is eye-opening!

Thanks for jogging me thinker. I feel free to respond here without reservation, knowing I'll get my *** kicked on occasion with the thought that it will accelerate my learning process --- which I think we just proved, it has.

Wert.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4topps-019.jpg

I'm glad you've taken this approach. It's exactly how I've used this forum. I see questions and post my answer/response/thought. Most of the time I'm correct. Every once in a while I kick it. But I know I'll get corrected if I do. It's the best way for me to learn.

It would be easy to sit back and wait for responses to make sure I don't make a mistake, and I'd look less a fool for doing so, but I don't learn as well that way.

I'm still in that phase where I know the rules well, and will answer most any question, but am many times only 90% certain. And sometimes I'm wrong. I need to get to where I'm 100% certain as often as possible, and posting/dialoguing/debating here is one of the best ways I can do it.

My HS coach taught the jump stop as ending our dribble as we jumped off of one foot and then landed simultaneously on two. He never said anything about pivoting after that. I don't know if he knew the legality of that or not.

The coach was definitely HL_YankinYerChain ;)

I just moved out to CA, well 5 months ago now. Didn't get signed up in time for HS games though, just starting to do wreck league games to stay fresh. I didn't know about the shot clock rule, will be interesting to use next year. If anybody knows of any other contacts for wreck leagues out here it would be greatly appreciated also.

In response to the OP, remember if the same jump stop happens to be that one foot lands (at the same time) fully in the FC and one in the BC then the player uses the FC foot as the pivot, once s/he picks up the BC foot, that foot must come down in the FC or it will be an over and back violation. Just something else to add in.