Partner called Travel OOB?
 

Hi everyone!

I've been lurking on the threads for a few months, and enjoy seeing the new topics/conversations every day. I have a situation and wanted to know how you handle it.

JH game last week. Partner is an older gentleman, out of shape, walks up and down the court, but does a lot of games at this particular school. We barely spoke before the game. He sat, reading the newspaper next to the scorer's table until after the teams were on the court for tipoff. I tried to initiate at least some conversation, but he didn't want to talk and just brushed it off.

Anyways.

Game is going...OK.

I am lead as A1 (White) makes a basket, and before B1 (Red) steps OOB, HC-B requests timeout. Partner grants, and I remain at the spot. B1 returns after the timeout. I verbally tell her that she may run the baseline, and also make a visual sweeping motion with my hand. B1 takes one step left, and then runs 3-4 steps right, staying OOB. Partner, from across halfcourt, calls "traveling." I am confused, and jog out to conference with him.

Me: What did you call?
Him: Traveling
Me: There's no traveling on throw-in. It was after a made basket. She can run the baseline.
Him: They called timeout. That means they can't anymore.

He then loudly says "White ball" and turns away from me. I say "Billy Bob," but he ignores/doesn't hear me, and walks away.

Rather than yell at him to come back, and look silly at midcourt having a pissing contest about who was right/wrong, I walk back to the baseline and say "White ball." B1 looks at me funny, but says nothing. HC-B makes no complaints that I can hear, and play resumes.

1. How do you handle this situation when you know your partner is mis-interpreting the rules. I tried to give him information to correct his call, but he didn't want to hear it. I can't overturn his call, merely give him information to make it correct? Let him live/die because it's wrong?

Since you're administering the throw-in, give it to red. Let him phone the assignor and make plans to have the egg removed from this face.

Sounds Like a little bit of heaven!!
 

You have to love the 60 feet away 'traveling' call on inbounds. Hey, you will be telling this story to your grandkids!

It's my call I will not allow another official misapply the rules intentionally especially when I know they are not correct. Yours must not have dropped yet.:confused:

I definitely would have given the ball to red in this situation and hope that he just lets it go...

One Option
 

One option: having concluded that this is a person who won't accept constructive critique, change, or conform to the norm, you can politely request to your assignor not to be matched with him again. When asked why, tactfully explain. If and when enough of your fellow officials do the same, the assignor will no doubt put this fine over-the-hill veteran gentleman out to pasture. Bet he had some good years. Sounds like his good years are over.
This is only one option. I'm sure there are others.

Is there an English translation of this? What "must not have dropped yet?" ??? :confused:

I think this is over the line, in this case. The poster is admittedly young -- probably relatively new -- and dealing with a much older, more established (although perhaps less qualified) official. It's not easy at all to go against the forceful ruling of a more advanced official when you're just starting out.

The original poster knows the rule but doesn't know how to deal with a difficult situation. Insulting him/her for being a little intimidated in a very intimidating situation is not helpful at all.

Added to the fact that this is his very first post and he's asking a question most officials have had at one time or another (how to deal with a difficult, more experienced partner), I agree completely.

Good point Scrappy. I too had a situation this year where my veteran co-official blew my OOB admin dead. The thrower-in dribbled while OOB on the throw-in. I continued my 5-sec count but partner blew whistle, ran over and said violation for dribbling OOB. I leaned over and told him it was legal. He said no, it isnt. I turned and headed down court so that we do not look worse; most people do not know that rule anyway. After the game I emailed him the rule. Never got a response back, tho. :)

Hey Splute, quick question.
 

I had a kid dribble very close to the endline on an inbounds play. If any part of the ball contacts inbounds during that dribble, then we have a violation, yes?

vert.

This is exactly what I would have done. :)

I agree, btw. Simply give it to the correct team and let him holler about it after the game.

[QUOTE=Scrapper1]I think this is over the line, in this case. The poster is admittedly young -- probably relatively new -- and dealing with a much older, more established (although perhaps less qualified) official. It's not easy at all to go against the forceful ruling of a more advanced official when you're just starting out.

Ok, and this means what. It is obvious that the poster can identify that the older gentlemen is lazy and out of shape from his initial observation of him. He should be able to identify that he allowed this older lazy gentlemen encourage him to kick a rule. When he stated himself that it was wrong. So how is that over the line Scrapper.

It's over the line because of what you're asking some who is not only new to officiating but also young. By the book, one official does not have the authority to overrule another. What everyone is suggesting here takes something that you don't come to possess just by putting on the stripes and a whistle. Your response did not in anyway help this guy do his job better. I don't know how things are where you are, but there is a shortage of good officials where I am. But when new guys come in, you can't expect them to be pros immediately. If we put that expectation on them, we're only going to drive them away and I know we can't afford that here.

Based on the definitions of a "throw-in" in Rule 4, yes ... if he dribbles the ball in bounds and touches it again, i have a violation. If his dribble went inbounds and he does not touch it again (unlikely)... I would consider it a throw-in and discontinue my count... however, until the ball is touched by another player the throw-in does not end, just the throw-in count.

[quote=truerookie]Furthermore, if he had stood his ground and now defies the Vet official and proceeds to allow Red to throw-in, do we assume the Vet is just gonna accept it? It reads as if he may blow his whistle and stop play again until White throws it in. What does this official gain at this point by belaboring the issue. Had the coaches chirped in, the youngster may have had a chance. It is better for the game at hand to move on. This one play will not decide the final outcome. This vet is probably well known in the area and it would not have been prudent at this time for the newbie to make a stand. Save it for half time or after the game or take it to the assignors as mentioned. We must be partners on the floor and give a sense of professionalism, even if it means one of us has to bite their tongue.

[QUOTE=Splute]I'm sure this vet probably is "well known" in this area. But it won't be for his good points. ;)

lol, nope not if the truth gets out... surely others have noticed his performance.... but then again, we are only getting one side of the story :)

[QUOTE=inigo montoya]It's over the line because of what you're asking some who is not only new to officiating but also young. I don't know how things are where you are, but there is a shortage of good officials where I am.

How does this makes this young official a good official in the future?



By allowing a rule to be kick because of a veteran official misapplication of a rule. I think it hurts more than help this young official. In the future, he may not ever attempt to stand by a what he believe is correct because of someone's veteran status. Because he will always remember this time in which a veteran overturn his call. Officiating is about developing confidence too just in case you have forgotten.

By this official being young it can cause second guessing too in the future when it comes to rule application due to the status of his partner(s).

So, I still stand by what I said.

It's just as wrong to kick a rule.

[QUOTE=truerookie]Do you condone a full on argument at half court -- or any part of the court -- between the 2 officials? sometimes you gotta get in and get out. Him arguing would not have changed anything except to get Billy Bob to start into more weight throwing during the rest of the game.

[quote]
In my opinion, since that is what we are obviously throwing around, he stood his ground by letting the Vet official know what the ruling should be... he was still overruled. There is a time and place for every battle, he will need to choose those carefully. Nothing will be gained by two officials hashing it out on the court. Get the game started and move on. Its about the kids playing; not the officials debating.

The last time I had a partner try to make up a rule that did not exist, I went to him privately and told him the proper rule. He insisted he was right. I told him that I if I was right, I got his game fee; if he was right, he got mine. It was amazing how suddenly he was not so sure about the proper rule, This discussion took less than 15 seconds.

If that does not work, I agree that the officials cannot continue to argue over the proper rule. Accept the call and move on.

A quick aside....the most uncomfortable "disagreement" I have been party to on a court was at a youth travel league a few years ago. I started what was to be the first of three games with an official, when a third official comes into the gym. There was no doubt I was at the proper gym...but the other two guys both swore they had the assignment too. The latecomer heads over to the school next door, where other games in that league are being played. Ten minutes later he comes back, saying those games are covered, and insisting that this is his game. I have to "referee" this match over who works (and who gets the game fees.) We had already stopped the game once to deal with this...and now the third guy insists that we stop it again so that he can take over. He won't stop. I tell him to wait until halftime; to wait for the next game; to go home and deal with the assignor. It took way too long before he left in a huff.

A couple of hours later the assignor showed up. He had made a mistake and did assign both guys to the same gym. I realize some officials work only for the money...and to lose $120 in fees matters to some. But it was real uncomfortable to watch.

I agree. The kids are the focal point.

Showed up to work frosh/JV games. Between those games the scorekeeper mentioned that we were doing a great job compared to the officials working games there earlier (thinking, oh oh, here comes the complaining!). He then said that those officials (both had left before we arrived) got in a halfcourt shoving match w/ each other, both shouting "Its your job" back and forth. No additional info on how/why was available besides another adult nearby confirming scorekeepers story.
Now I know that rules shouldnt be kicked, but sometimes one needs to back down to keep the game flowing.
I like the "bet my gamecheck I'm right vs yours" comment.

Look people, I understand your points. It still does not change my mind. These type of situations I agree does not look good. BUT, when it is obvious to all parties involved that a rule has been kicked in my mind it really questions the officials integrity.

Being a young official myself <4 years experience. I have been put in similar situations by Veteran official to see if I had the confidence to correctly apply a rule they kick on purpose to see if I would challenge them.

I was not aware of that until after the game during post game conference. This is when it was brought to my attention. Is this cool? NO, but it happened to me.

So, who is to say this young official was not put in a similar situation. This is why I took the approach I took. I have experienced it.

The Squirrel analogy is damn funny though!
 

:d

Reminds me of the last time I worked with Chuck.... I gave him the 2 armed chest shove and put my back out reaching down to hit him.

Here he is at a clinic he runs in the summer for local officials.

http://photos8.flickr.com/7602217_287caf7e7d_o.jpg

Rook, how exactly does telling him that he has no balls help to develop his confidence?

Your point that he allowed the vet to intimidate him into deliberately misapplying a rule is valid. But telling a new official who already knows the situation was mishandled that he's less than a man was the part that was over the line, IMHO.

If you disagree, so be it. I don't want to make this thread about me. Just my thoughts on your comment.

He's taller than I pictured. :cool:

No, the basket is just lower.

I like the whistle; is it a Fox 2.5?

I'm on the same line of thinking with TRook. If the kid/young official knows the rule, he has to enforce the rule. Give the ball back to Red. He needs to learn to exert his presence and his knowledge of the rules regardless of who his partner is. I say this because I just received a 2nd email from one of my college assignors talking about a crew kicking a rule. There are serious ramifications on an officials career and game schedule if they allow a rule to intentionally get kicked. I'm a first year college official, and I've come in on 2 occassions this year and cited the correct rule when the R was about to kick it and the R was a veteran D-I official in this DII game. I'm shy when it comes to giving advice or speaking up, but if I know in my heart what the correct ruling is then I have to find it in myself to say something and put on the most convincing argument. In the OP, all Young had to tell Billy Bob is that she's allowed to run the baseline, the throw-in is my call, and I'm not letting you make my call from on the otherside of the division line.

I guess my point is that if TrueRook chose those words, harsh as they may be, it may be what Young needs to hear. The sooner he hears is and does it, the better off he will be.

Thoughts
 

@ TrueRookie (and whether you were out of line): No offense taken. While I haven't posted on the boards, I have been reading them for a while, and expected this response from someone. However, "growing a pair" isn't really the issue what I was trying to address. Let's not make this a flame war.

@ everyone who said to give the ball to Red OOB: This was my initial thought as I went back to the baseline, but as several people mentioned, I thought that since he made the point to say "White ball" loudly (implying that we had just discussed the call and come to a consensus together), it would look foolish if I ran back and gave the ball to Red.

Either 1) He would stop play again and say "White ball," which would make us look worse, have to then hash it out again, in full view of everyone knowing that we just disagreed 2) The HC-White would now raise protest, saying "You both just talked and he said 'white ball!".

The second thought that ran through my head was that if Red inbounded the ball quickly before partner could stop play, it is a non-correctable error, and Red would retain possesion even if it was blown dead ;)

@ TrueRookie for stating that I allowed partner to let me kick a rule/because of vet's status: I don't think it was because of "vet" status that I let him kick the rule. I gave him the information to change it, he didn't want to change it, loudly stated his decision before we agreed. Should I have let him kick the rule? That was part of my question to everyone. It's really easy to say "Give the ball to red....screw him" But in reality, are you going to have a big fight on the court about one possesion?

I don't think I'm not going to "stand up" to a veteran because of this, as I don't consider myself a "rookie". I didn't just roll over and say "woops, I guess he must be right!" I don't have a problem checking with my partner if I feel a rule has been kicked. Yes, it's wrong to kick a rule. That is why rules are in place. My question was more about how to handle a situation where you and your partner disagree.

@ Deecee: This is what I was trying to get it. I didn't want to stand at halfcourt and have an arguement about who was right/wrong. I wanted to discuss the call, but he stopped discussing it and made a decision, reconfirming his original call. What am I supposed to do, as his partner on the court?? Throw him out of the game? This is where I hoped to generate discussion. If I did argue/give the ball to red, the situation is only going to escalate.

@ Splute: I agreed with your statement on "time and place for everything" and that is why I decided to not argue on the middle of the court. Yes, I was almost hoping that HC-Red would say something, so that we could jog over and have a discussion, and HC-Red would say "You can still run the baseline" and partner goes "Oh, uh..yeah, that's right." I think that my partner decided that inherently he was right/I was wrong because of his age/vet status. But, what am I to do? "Hey coach, can you come over here and tell my partner that he's wrong?" It's my partner and I, and we have to make a decision together. We can't poll the audience!

@ BayStateRef: I like your "bet the gamecheck" idea! I almost wish I had done that in retrospect, as I'm sure that he would have accepted.

@ Archangel: Wow, and not that I would ever get into a shoving match about a rule, but that is what I didn't want the situation to disintegrate into...where we just argued back and forth about a call. We can't give the ball to both teams, and have to make a decision. Because he made the decision, and then (seemingly) made the decision for us again after conferencing, I didn't have anything to go on....other than trying to "sneak one in"

Thanks to everyone for all the comments/discussion:) I didn't mean to state this as myself vs Vet official, but how to handle a situation where you and your partner(s) disagree on (any) rule. BayStateRef had a fun idea about betting the gamecheck, but I could see that turning it into a "you vs me" problem. I obviously knew the rule, tried to correct it, and he didn't want any part of it.

Walter
(To the official who called Tyler F. this morning and said "What the **** are you doing JH games for!)

I just moved to Muncie/Ball State, and since I'm new to the area and still making contacts.....a few JH games during the week. Plus, it pays the rent. I know I'm certainly not getting paid enough of a stipend! haha

Clarification
 

TruRookie:

Someone kicked a rule on purpose, during the game, to see if you would correct it?? Wow. To me, that's scary, and I wouldn't trust those officials. Did their supervisor/assignor know? What if you didn't catch it? Were they going to correct themselves? Did they talk before the game and say "in the middle of the 2nd Q, I'm going to blow a call around 3:00....if TruRookie doesn't catch it, make sure you cover me.

I guess, if someone told me that they were going to kick a rule...just to "test" someone....I would think it absurd! Why mess with the game, the athletes playing it, your own integrity and judgement (and obviously, the perception of you as an official), to test someone?

During my game, I don't think he kicked the rule intentionally just to 'test' me. And, if he was, wouldn't my running out to check him be enough, to change the call? How far would you go to test someone? If it wasn't intentional, I would think that he would be willing to listen to me, when I questioned him about the call.

I just wanted to clarify, that I didn't think his kicking the rule was intentional. He honestly that that was the rule (or had a major brain freeze)

[QUOTE=Young IN Ref]@ TrueRookie (and whether you were out of line): No offense taken. While I haven't posted on the boards, I have been reading them for a while, and expected this response from someone. However, "growing a pair" isn't really the issue what I was trying to address. Let's not make this a flame war. It's not ;) Others made it out of that.

@ TrueRookie for stating that I allowed partner to let me kick a rule/because of vet's status: I don't think it was because of "vet" status that I let him kick the rule. I gave him the information to change it, he didn't want to change it, loudly stated his decision before we agreed. Should I have let him kick the rule? That was part of my question to everyone. It's really easy to say "Give the ball to red....screw him" But in reality, are you going to have a big fight on the court about one possesion? I agree it would not be a big fight about one possession red would have gotten the ball. :)

I just moved to Muncie/Ball State, and since I'm new to the area and still making contacts.....a few JH games during the week. I didn't know the circumstance. HOWEVER, this really supports my statement. You never know the circumstances in which others my challenge your rules knowledge and confidence in them. ;)

[QUOTE=Young IN Ref]TruRookie:

Someone kicked a rule on purpose, during the game, to see if you would correct it?? Wow. To me, that's scary, and I wouldn't trust those officials. Did their supervisor/assignor know? What if you didn't catch it? Were they going to correct themselves? Did they talk before the game and say "in the middle of the 2nd Q, I'm going to blow a call around 3:00....if TruRookie doesn't catch it, make sure you cover me.

I guess, if someone told me that they were going to kick a rule...just to "test" someone....I would think it absurd! Why mess with the game, the athletes playing it, your own integrity and judgement (and obviously, the perception of you as an official), to test someone?

During my game, I don't think he kicked the rule intentionally just to 'test' me. And, if he was, wouldn't my running out to check him be enough, to change the call? How far would you go to test someone? If it wasn't intentional, I would think that he would be willing to listen to me, when I questioned him about the call.

I stated that I did not know about it until we conduct a post game conference. This is when it was brought to me attention.

Young IN Ref - let me ask you this. Just curious. What if this had happened in the final seconds of a tie game? Would you have reacted the same? Again - not saying I agree or disagree with how you handled it - just want to know if that would have made a difference.

If you haven't ran across him yet, Robert Voss would be one individual to track down. I believe he's still in that area. Great guy, veteran tournament official.