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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 06:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Even though I was not there, I probably would have asked the player to repeat what they said. If they did not repeat what they said, then I would just let them know directly that "you might not want to go down that road with me." I would either tell the coach that he needs to take care of X player or I will, or if I did not have a chance to talk to the coach, I would just put that in my little back pocket and the next time player X does not get another chance.

It is really hard to say what I would do if no one heard the comments because if the kid was a jag off earlier in the game that would be easy. If that was the first time he said anything, I might handle it differently. I want to avoid a T anytime I can. But sometimes people put you into a situation that you have little choice.

Peace
Jeff...............that's an excellent way to handle it in my view. Hopefully I won't have to use it.

It's very hard to make a judgement call on these situations that we read in print only, much depends on the attitude, inflection, body language, all of the usual stuff.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 06:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee
I guess I dont officiate in the court of public opinion
I hate to break it to you; it might not be the public opinion you have to worry about. It might be your assignor, your state organization or any other people that decide

I will give you an example. I told a kid during a X-Mas Tournament this past season that the actions between him and the other player might result in a technical foul if they decided to keep the holding and pushing that took place before I handed the thrower the ball. To make a long story short, the kid went back and said this to the coach. Then the coach tried to confront me after the game near the hospitality room and went to the tournament director to complain about me. Of course I had a very understanding group of individuals and nothing was a problem, but I have seen situations where it would be. And whether you like it or not if someone feels you did the wrong thing or took actions unwarranted in your hands, then you might get barred from the league you work (I have seen this happen to people) or not get post season assignments. Now all I said was to dot your "I" and cross your "T" so that when you do give a T, it is harder to question your judgment or your motives. And if this discussion has not taught you anything, then you better realize that everyone is not supporting your actions 100%. And if you get the wrong assignor or evaluator that says you are wrong, then you might suffer some consequences far beyond this game. My main point is you should protect yourself as much as you possibly can.

Peace
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 07:05pm
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a couple of alternate ideas

Here are some things that have worked for me and others I know of:

1) If the player says something in a tight game and has been a good citizen for the most part. After the foul is reported, walk by the player and tell them "this is a good game, you don't want to hurt your team now." This has worked effectively.

2) If the player doesn't quite get it, then the next contact could definitely result in a foul on the player. Maybe they will get the message then.

3) Let the coach know that the player is on the edge of hurting the team, then let the coach deal with it.

4) Next time you have that player, just remind them that we are not going to have a repeat of the last game, because they were given the benefit of a doubt the last time.

If you T that is your choice, but these are just a couple of ideas that might also be effective for you in other situations.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 07:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls
Here are some things that have worked for me and others I know of:

1) If the player says something in a tight game and has been a good citizen for the most part. After the foul is reported, walk by the player and tell them "this is a good game, you don't want to hurt your team now." This has worked effectively.

2) If the player doesn't quite get it, then the next contact could definitely result in a foul on the player. Maybe they will get the message then.

3) Let the coach know that the player is on the edge of hurting the team, then let the coach deal with it.

4) Next time you have that player, just remind them that we are not going to have a repeat of the last game, because they were given the benefit of a doubt the last time.

If you T that is your choice, but these are just a couple of ideas that might also be effective for you in other situations.
So in other words you are going to do everything you can to avoid dealing with the issue to include calling the next contact a foul where you otherwise would pass. Maybe you should change your name to icallbs.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 07:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I hate to break it to you; it might not be the public opinion you have to worry about. It might be your assignor, your state organization or any other people that decideNow all I said was to dot your "I" and cross your "T" so that when you do give a T, it is harder to question your judgment or your motives. And if this discussion has not taught you anything, then you better realize that everyone is not supporting your actions 100%. And if you get the wrong assignor or evaluator that says you are wrong, then you might suffer some consequences far beyond this game. My main point is you should protect yourself as much as you possibly can.
Great advice, Jeff. One common theme I have heard from my supervisors is that if you are perceived as unapproachable, you will not be working at that level for very long. To me, that means I am responsible for that. It means actively and honestly listening to everything before reacting or dropping the hammer. A coach or player crosses the line, everyone will know it. Those gray and/or "ego" areas--they are fair game for interpretation, which may or may not go your way all the time.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 08:29pm
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Question Integrity ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20
There is a difference between a player saying that he doesn't agree with a call and saying that you are the reason they are losing. By saying that he is questioning your integrity and yes, he should be T'd up for that immediatly without warning.
Amen.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 08:37pm
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Modified Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
At a youth travel league game on Sunday, played with rules modifications that forbid zones. I called the coaches together and reminded them of the rule and told them it was our decision what constitued a zone. The officials at the game site have the final responsibility for interpreting the violation. If there is no advantage being gained then the official in all likelihood may not call the violation.
On weekends, when available, I work some Catholic middle school games that have "modified rules" when certain point differentials are reached, no fast breaks, no presses, stay inside the arc on defense, stay inside the lane on defense, etc.

My problem is that none of these terms are defined in any rule book that I know of. NFHS rules have a single rule, I believe the longest section in the book, Rule 4, on definitions. The NFHS has a reason for this long section. I wish that league adminsitrators would realize how difficult it is for officials to enforce rules where certain terms are not well defined.

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 09:04pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 08:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
So in other words you are going to do everything you can to avoid dealing with the issue to include calling the next contact a foul where you otherwise would pass. Maybe you should change your name to icallbs.
maybe not the next contact foul... but I would say I am going to do everything I can to PREVENT it.... or make sure he earned it
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 09:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
I'm kind of shocked. I am not bashful with my Ts at all, but I don't think I would say some of the stuff that I've heard here. I have asked a coach to please stop yelling at me. That is about all I will say to the coach before he is T'd. I will do what Rut said and ask a player to repeat himself/herself if I'm not 100% sure. If I'm 100% sure, done deal. I did have a player tell me one time, "I'm talking to you!" He was done for the night about 1 minute later.
I believe in being to the point and quite clear and unambiguous. Telling a coach he is about to receive a technical foul if he doesn't change his behavior will lead to 2 things -- he changes his behavior or he gets whacked. It takes quite a bit before I get to this point, but once I do I follow through.

And there's no misunderstanding that the coach has been warned. Another ditty to add to the game report, if it comes to that.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 09:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
I believe in being to the point and quite clear and unambiguous. Telling a coach he is about to receive a technical foul if he doesn't change his behavior will lead to 2 things -- he changes his behavior or he gets whacked. It takes quite a bit before I get to this point, but once I do I follow through.

And there's no misunderstanding that the coach has been warned. Another ditty to add to the game report, if it comes to that.
I personally do not like to threaten or say the words technical foul. But I will say that "if you do not handle this (or change this) behavior, then you are going to leave me with little or no choice to take action." I have found that it gets across the point of view that I want them to get. And they know what I mean. It seems to come off less confrontational in my experiences. And I feel it empowers them to make the right decision rather than it looking like I was using my power over them. I have even said to players when they get goofy, "Do you want to play the next game?" They get the message really quick.

Peace
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 11:07am
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Late:
No Brainer...Whack the kid. Players get 0 tolerance when unsportingly addressing officials, in my games.

In fact, 0 tolerance when unsportingly addressing anyone....

example:

Short Version: I whacked a kid for taunting a player last night.

Long Version:

Last night I was part of a 3 person crew officiating a Martin Luther King Jr Day H.S. Varsity tournament. Late in a 20 point blow-out...B1, that was winning, was guarding A1 as A1 was dribbling up the floor. I'm Trail with the two players.

B1 started saying something like, "I'm going to strip you boy"...then B1 steals the ball and starts dribbling towards his basket as he says, "see I got ya"!

All this takes place in less than 2 seconds.

I blow my whistle and Whack B1 right after he stole the ball from A1.

The crowd and Coach initially think I call a foul on the clean steal. (I probably could have slowed down my "T" sign after I blew the whistle...and held it a little longer) No one heard the kid taunting the other player. But, I did...so he got whacked. I said to the table, in a loud voice..."Unsporting behavior, taunting on blue 5".

One of my partners came over and asked if I wanted to administer the FT's...I said no, I wanted to talk to the Coach.

The Coach was standing in his box as I approached. I told him what happened...and he said, "We don't need that, and the sub for him is at the table". I said, "Great"...and away we went.
We finished the game uneventful.

Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to issue warranted T's...just come up with a sound philosophy on what warrants the T.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 11:24am
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I'm jumping in on this late. It sounds like a solid T to me, no matter what the score or time happens to be. He used the magic word of "you". As far as the baiting conversation, I try to use, "Ok coach, you've had your say, you need to let it go now." and walk away.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I personally do not like to threaten or say the words technical foul. But I will say that "if you do not handle this (or change this) behavior, then you are going to leave me with little or no choice to take action." I have found that it gets across the point of view that I want them to get. And they know what I mean. It seems to come off less confrontational in my experiences. And I feel it empowers them to make the right decision rather than it looking like I was using my power over them. I have even said to players when they get goofy, "Do you want to play the next game?" They get the message really quick.

Peace
It's a "have to be there" decision. There are times I will use the words, and there are times I know I don't have to or would be just egging the coach on. 15 years of dealing with coaches in 3 sports at the varsity level or above have made me pretty good at knowing what to say, although I don't always get it perfect.

The latest time: I had to walk down the other end of the court to defuse a situation where my (less experienced) partner was allowing too much cross-court yelling to happen (on an out of bounds call the coach could not possibly see, no less). I wasn't going to whack the coach from 70 feet away on the other side of the court, but I wasn't going to allow the situation to continue. I used the words "technical foul" when talking to him and realized he may say something unkind back I would have to let go considering I went all the way TO him which looked aggressive on my part to begin with. But the NEXT one where he YELLED would, indeed, be handled with a T. I promised him that.

As I said to my partner that night (who is a first year varsity official), it will get easier to handle these kind of things once you whack a few coaches who have it coming (and probably some who don't).
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