Mark, just because someone is an Editor doesn't mean that they are completely knowledgeable about the material that they are editing. I've seen too many wierd(for you, Chuck) rulings issued by her to consider her as a definitive rules source. You might be better off to go to your state interpreter or another Rules Committee member on this one.

As Tony said, it's not really covered definitively. My own feeling? The purpose and intent imo of the substitution rules were to not allow coaches to play games or gain an unfair advantage with or through the substitution process. Allowing a legitimately injured player who has recovered to re-enter the game in one specific case to make up 5 players on the court isn't really an unfair advantage. Note again that is just my personal opinion. I'm surerashell about as far from being a definitive rules source as you can get.

As many of you know (or may not know) NASO is having its annual officiating summit in Cleveland, Ohio from Sunday thru Tuesday. I am not going because it costs $400 (not including hotel rooms) for a NASO member (which I am) and I am too cheap to fork out that kind of money.

BUT on Saturday, the OhiHSAA is having an officiating clinic for its officials in basketball, football, soccer (futbol, :D ), and volleyball at the same hotel as the NASO Officials Summit. The cost is $30 (the official has to choose one of the four sports) and an official gets credit for the mandatory State Rules Meeting and one Local Association Rules Meeting. 'The Preacher" and I are going for the basketball clinic.

Mary Struckhoff will be at the NASO Summit and I have just talked with the OhioHSAA office and while Mary Struckhoff is not scheduled for as a clinician for the OhioHSAA Clinic there is the chance that she will make an appearence at the basketball clinic because Hank Zaborniak, of the OhioHSAA will be speaking at the NASO Officials Summit. And if she does show up for a question and answer session, I will be asking her about this play.

MTD, Sr.

NCAA Ruling
 

The NCAA rule book leaves no room for discussion on the situation.

Rule 3-1-2: The team may continue to play with fewer than five players when all other squad members are not eligible or able to play

Rule 3-4-14: A player who has been withdrawn or replaced by a substitute may reenter the game at the next opportunity to substitute, provided that the game clock has been properly started after the withdrawal or replacement.

Rule 4-51: Player: A player is one of five or fewer members of a team's personnel who is legally on the playing court to participate

Rule 4-65: Team Member: A team member is a member of the bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Based on those rulings, if this play were to happen in a college game, one of the four remaining players on the floor would have to shoot the free throws and they would play with 4 until the next opportunity to sub in the 5th player.

I don't know if the High School ruling is the same as I'm not sure of the language in the rule book.

TexRef:

The NFHS rules say the same thing and all NFHS Casebook Plays and NCAA Approved Rulings are plays where there are no eligible substitutes. BUT, the play we are discussing has an eligible player sitting the bench. If you haven't read the entire thread, I suggest reading posts #5 through #30. They will give you the background as to why a team must have five (5) players on the court if they have five (5) eligible players.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

That's the thing, the sub is not an eligible player until time runs off of the clock. I understand the 5 players, but a player has to be eligible to play. In this case, the team member is not eligible until time has come off of the clock.

I said the exact same thing months ago. MTD just doesn't believe that. He didn't believe it then and he doesn't believe that now. There is no use trying to convince him otherwise.

PS The NFHS book uses the same language as the NCAA book. You and I agree that the language is clear. MTD says that it is not.

I say that it isn't also. This particular play is not covered under either ruleset imo.

???
 

What's not clear about it? The rule clearly states that if the team has 5 eligible players. In this case, the "sub" isn't eligible for the reason listed under the sub rule. Because of that, the "sub" does not meet the definition of either Team personnel or a Player. Mind you this is just temporary, but I don't think you can argue the language in the rule book can you?

The rules state that a team may not play short if it has eligible players on the bench. By definition an eligible player is a player is one who is not disqualified. The player who went out is not a disqualified player and since the rules state that a team may not play short the player must come back into the game to replace the injured player even though no time has run off the clock.

MTD, Sr.

Rule 4 Definitions ???
 

Mark, NFHS citation please, rule book, or case book.

Mark

I gave you the definition of Player and Team Member and the shorthanded rule in my first post. The "sub" is not eligible based on the definitions given and the sub rule quoted. But, you will obviously not be convinced of that and you won't convince me so we can agree to disagree.:)

Meant to add this to this reply:
Edited to add the following:
After finally getting home and looking over the HS rule book, Mark you still don't have an argument to make. The HS rules do not "define" substitute the way that NCAA does. However under 3-1-1 Note: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five...
Rule 3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started following his/her replacement.

Now the only argument I see you having is whether this "once-in-a-lifetime" situation would fall under this rule, or the NCAA rule for that matter, or you might could argue that the famous 2-3 could, and I stress COULD, apply here.

Billy,

There is no definition of eligible player. The NCAA rule book defines Bench Personnel, Team Personnel, Substitute and Team Member. :eek:

PLAY: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two shots. After A1’s first free throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free throw attempt is unsuccessful. During the rebound action for A1’s missed second free throw attempt (and before the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court, A1 (A1’s foul was before the game clock started) pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a timeout in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the timeout has ended.

QUESTION: Can B2 return to the game to replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts? Or must B2 remain out of the game until the first opportunity for Team B to substitute after the clock has started and instead one of the four Team B players on the court at the time of B3’s injury to shoot his free throws?


I have taken the position that B2 can return. I am going to reference NFHS Rules but they equally applicable to games played under NCAA Men's/Women's Rules.


NFHS R3-S1-A1 (TEAM): Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain. NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game. See NCAA R3-S1-A1, A2, and A3.


NFHS R3-S3-A4 (SUBSTITUTION): A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement. See NCAA R3-S4-A14.

The purpose of NFHS R3-S3-A4 is to keep both teams from running players in and out of the game during the same stop clocked period: HC-B sends B3 in for B2; HC-A sees this and sends in A6 for A5; then HC-B sends B2 back in the game for B3 which causes HC-A to send A5 back in for A6, ad infinitum.


NFHS R4-S34-A2 (BENCH PERSONNEL): Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel. See NCAA R4-S8-A1.

NFHS R4-S14-A1 (DISQUALIFIED PLAYER): A disqualified player is one who is barred from further participation in the game because of having committed his/her fifth foul (personal and technical), two technical fouls or a flagrant foul. See NCAA R4-S20-A1.

NFHS R4-S34-A1 (PLAYER): A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission. See NCAA R4-S51.

NFHS R4-S34-A3 (SUBSTITUTE): A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification. See NCAA R4-S63.

NFHS R4-S34-A4 (TEAM MEMBER): A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. See NCAA R4-S65.


NFHS Casebook Play 3.1.1.: SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

NFHS Casebook Play 3.1.1 coupled with the reason for NFHS R3-S3-A4 (NCAA R3-S4-A4) supports allowing B2 to re-enter the game in the original situation being discussed in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

I just got back from the OhioHSAA Officiating Clinic in Cleveland. Mary Struckhoff was not there so the subject never came up. AND, I was not going to spend $400 as NASO member to attend the NASO Officiating Summit from Sunday thru Tuesday.

BUT, since the MichiganHSAA went to girls' basketball in the Winter I have not registered with the MichiganHSAA. But, I am going to this year because I understand the girls' jr. H.S. basketball is still being played in the Fall. That way I can send the play to both the OhioHSAA and MichiganHSAA State Intepreters and hope I get conflicting answers. :D Ain't I a baaaad boy!! :D

MTD, Sr.

MTD, Sr.