Good or No Good?
 

The following play was posted on another forum. Interested to see what kind of responses it brings here.

There is dead ball timeout with 3.5 seconds on the clock. Team takes it out of bounds after the timeout. They throw the ball to the other end where a kid catches it, bobbles it passes to another kid who shoots it. It hits the backboard where another kid picks it up and makes a layup.....NO BUZZER!! The clock never started.

What are the referees supposed to do in this situation?

The team that is throwing in is trailing by one point, 56 to 57.

I, and other officials, would be do a count in our heads. You know for last second shot. If I got to 4 and did not hear a horn, then I would try to take a peek at the clock. Make note that it was not running. Look at the player with the ball and see the status. If ball is out of hand, then the shot is good. If Ball is still in hand, then blow the whistle and state the game is over. I have definite knowledge of time that should have past. It is more than 3.5 seconds. GAME OVER. Run like HELL. :D

It depends if the officials have some definite knowledge of what time ran off the clock. Was the ball in the backcourt? Did the official have a 10 second count? Was the ball in the FC? And how fast was the shot?

With all of that being said, I would lean towards doing the entire thing over and making sure I am watching the clock. I do not see how easy it would be to know 3.5 seconds went off the clock simply in my head.

Peace

Additional information...I didn't see this play..I'm relaying what was written.

B/C E/L throw-in. Ball is passed almost the entire length of the floor. The officials get together and have a lengthy discussion which is followed by a long discussion with the coaches. They wave the basket and call the game.

The prior posts have covered how to handle that situation well. I will answer the question from a different angle. Earlier this season I was in a game that had .5 seconds on the clock and the offensive team with the ball and behind by one point. During the timeout, we convened as a crew and went over our responsibilties on the final play. My partner(tableside L) who was handling the throw-in told us after he put the ball in play he would check the clock to be sure it started properly. The player who caught the inbounds pass turned and fired up a prayer. The horn blew while the ball was in the air and on its way to the winning shot. I thought his plan to watch the clock start on was a great idea. I will keep that in my bag of tricks for future games.

I think we all would agree that we have to be good clock managers. With this play they weren't and they had a made basket with no time off the clock. The question is what should the referee's do?

The only question I would ask the crew is, "How do you know the shot would not count?" Then I would ask, "Who was watching the clock?"

This is not an easy situation without that information. It is possible they got it right or the action took a really long time. Someone just has to watch the clock.

Peace

Side Bar / Minor Hijack
 

Lets say they were watching the clock to make sure it started but it didn't
would you

A. tweet, and talk to timer to make sure he got it this time

B. Just count it yourself then blow whistle after time ,in your count , had expired.

Something similar happened around here a few years ago during a playoff game I went to watch -- not to work (thank God!!). 3.4 seconds left, TO after made basket, so team down by 3, who has the ball, can run the baseline. They throw a pass out of bounds followed by a pass down 3/4s of the court to about the 3 point line a third or so of the way between the top of the key and the corner. Buzzer goes off when he starts to dribble. From replays, I saw that the lead official realizes clock started too soon (on first OOB pass) about the time the buzzer went off.

To make a very long story as short as possible, they replayed it, putting it back at the baseline, but this time, the clock operator accidentally put 3 minutes, 40 seconds on the clock as he couldn't differentiate that on his clock from 3.4 seconds. During this sequence, thee buzzer never goes off, but the clock runs. The long inbounds pass is stolen, the ball is thrown up in the air for jubilation purposes, and when it comes down, the team behind grabs the ball and sinks a 2 point shot. Then, everyone realizes the clock was set wrong. Instead of calling that the game (there were at least 4-5 seconds in all that play), they decide to do it ONE MORE TIME. It ended up with the team ahead winning, but I swear, there would have been a riot there had the team behind tied the game and eventually won.

Know what's on the clock and when it should go off.

Now where have I seen this one before...oh yeah, the 1972 Olympic Men's Basketball Final game in Munich. :mad:

What do you do if, in the OP, you as one of the officials look at the clock after the first player has caught it? Do you blow it dead right then? If so, where do you give the team the ball, at the POI or is this a "do over"? Or, do you start a visible count and let the play go on, ending it when you rech 3.5?

I blow it dead as soon as I realize it hasn't started. I give the ball back at POI. If I had a count on and got to "1" before blowing the whistle, I take 1 second off the clock.

And no one looking at the scoreboard could tell the difference either?

I guess that can be done in Illinois since that state doesn't use the NFHS officials manual. :rolleyes:

2007-09 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual
2.6.2D and 3.6.2D

Clock malfunctions occur; there are no provisions in the rules for "do-overs." Know the rules regarding these unusual situations and apply them appropriately.

Probably B because with that little time and a full court pass, I don't want to interrupt a scoring play.
BTW I'm making a VISIBLE COUNT in such situations just in case the timer visits LA-LA land and the clock doesn't start. If I am going to end a period/game without a horn, you can darn well bet that my count is going to show up on video.

Unfortunately, this stuff does happen as the NFHS manual notes. Timers sometimes get excited about the game and involved in watching the action and forget to do their job. We need to know the rules and deal with it properly. That means that if there is no count and no definite knowledge, the basket counts, nothing is taken off the clock and the opponent is awarded an end line throw-in. Sucks for them, but mistakes happen.

Yup, and sometimes the rules dictate having what is basically a do-over.

Situation:TO taken after a made basket with 3.0 seconds left. After the TO, thrower A1 passes along the end line to teammate A2 who makes a long throw-in down court. The timer mistakenly started the clock on the pass along the endline and the horn now goes off with the throw-in in the air. What are you going to do?

The scoreboard in the new gym at my alma mater shows tenths and hundredths during the final minute. If the clock stops at 5.82 seconds, the scoreboard shows 5:82 and no one is confused. If it stops at 3.40 seconds, it would show 3:40 and a person could be confused.

Come to think of it, there may be lights in between the MM and the SS that can change from : to . but I'm not sure about that.

With hindsight as 20-20... what do you do?
 

from OP What exactly are you doing/saying both within the team of referees and to the table during this timeout? Say for 2-man and 3-man?

I guess you need to go back and read, because I did not even use the word do-over or suggest that you would do-over the play. I was talking about watching the clock.

Peace

I've gotta say, JR, that this confused me:

What did you mean by this?

Tell A1 to stop throwing passes to himself along the endline...:p

<i>Mea Culpa</i> Thanks, fixed.

If the clock did not start properly, you are doing anything over. You are starting the game when you noticed a mistake. And if you do not have definite knowledge of how much time was should be on the clock, you cannot just make up a number and put the ball at another point. To me going back to the end line would be correcting a mistake, not doing the play over. You cannot do over a situation that technically did not even happen. I would say the same thing if the game clock started while the ball was in the air on a long pass on the throw-in.

And to prevent this from happening, watch the clock and you will at least know if the clock started properly or not.

Peace

How about this approach since there is already a dead-ball timeout?

When you know the game is on the line with a potential last shot, take a moment for an official's timeout or to visit the table during the timout. Go to the table with your partner(s) and remind the clock operator to start the clock "when it first touches any player inbounds"; T assumes the responsiblity to watch clock after handing the ball to the player for the throw-in and making a visible count should the clock not start for some reason; L (2-person crew) assumes responsibility for officiating the action on the throw-in in case B decides to use the strategy of fouling A and taking their chances with A shooting free throws instead of letting A possibly making a 3-point shot. T can continue the count but after confirming the clock has started properly can then officiate with normal T and L responsibilities for court coverage.

I've got no problem with quickly getting together to review responsibilities and someone at the table making a reminder to the clock operator is good.

Wrong message - you should tell the timer to watch the administering official and start the clock on his chop. This helps the timer focus on his job, not on the action.

You can both officiate the throw-in action, and as the pass comes in a quick glance to make sure the clock starts is all you need. Both officials should be responsible for this with the official who doesn't have the ball in his primary being "mostly" responsible, IMO, as long as there is a clock in each official's field of vision.