Howler monkey gets media outlet

[tharbert]

The writer of this article (url below) has a kid on a local HS team. The coach, a 1 year veteran has a 2 and 16 record. This guy wants to know why we officials treat women coaches differently from men coaches. I ask why the howler hasn't learned that riding the refs all game long won't improve the girl's play or their record. I've had this coach. It's nothing but incessant "call this" and "over the back", and "3 seconds!" and "call it both ways" and, well you get the picture.

This is also the coach who made it a habit of rating every official that came across her floor as "below average." And she wonders why the AD can't schedule officials for her game?

Anyway, my question is, which one of you was the "veteran official" that gave us up? He cites an un-named source and I wanna know who it is!

http://www.southernillinoisan.com/re...ts/SPO009.html

[Edited by tharbert on Feb 14th, 2002 at 11:54 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Taken from the article:


...
On consecutive possessions, she felt the opposing center had done a two-step while making post moves. She "reminded" the officials to "watch the feet."

Our daughter committed an obvious traveling violation the next time down the floor.

The referee correctly made the call. However, he took it one step further.

As he ran past our bench, he said, "Coach, I was watching that time."

That's when the foul (technical, that is) deed was done.

"Just call the game," our coach said. "Don't be a smart (mild expletive)."
...


T-worthy?

[Brad]

I don't see how the official can legitimately give a technical here since he initiated the conversation.

He ran by and made a smart comment to the coach — did he think that she wouldn't (or shouldn't) reply?

Keep your mouth shut and stay out of trouble.

The issue of whether the technical was given or not because the coach was a woman is another story — I have no idea.

But if the author thinks it's bad the way male officials treat women coaches, he should see the way that everyone treats women officials — especially when they are officiating a boys game!

Wonder when he's gonna do an article on that? Hmmm...

[Bart Tyson]

Only a small problem with this writer. THERE WAS ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE STORY. HMMMMMM. This is a BS article.

[Mark Padgett]

I just read the story via the link and sent this email to the author:

"Les - I just read, on the net, your story regarding women basketball coaches. I don't know how things are in southern Illinois (I am originally from Chicago, but now live in Portland, OR.), but around here there is absolutely no difference in how officials treat female coaches. If we did, we would be fired.

I found it interesting that you wonder why most officials are men. It's simple. Most coaches are male. The amount of abuse they heap upon female officials is at least 10 times more virulent and prevalent than the amount we men get.

Frankly, you had the situation turned around the wrong way. Let's see if you now do a followup on that issue.

BTW - I have been officiating basketball for 22 seasons and am a card-carrying member of the National Association of Sports Officials.

Also BTW - your kid didn't happen to be on the team on which the coach got the T?"

If I get a reply, I will post it.

[PublicBJ]

My letter to Les and the editors:

This is in response to the above referenced column from February 13th:

TO LES WINKELER AND THE EDITORS:

I'm sure that the coach was completely forthright and included all of the pertinent facts when she "recounted" the exchange. If I am silly enough to believe that, and that the events happened as the coach explained it, then the technical was probably not have been warranted. I wasn't there to say for sure. But I highly doubt that we're getting the whole story. We're getting one side of it, and if these other veteran officials that you consulted with are worth their salt, they would qualify their answer in the same way. Unfortunately, most referees are prohibited from ever giving their side of the story.

In my years of officiating (and watching) high-school women's basketball throughout this country, I've never perceived a double-standard on how male and female coaches are treated by officials. Do they exist in some isolated cases? Almost certainly, referees are human and have faults like anyone else. But not in general.

I've heard many stories from coaches about mistreatment, and over 90% of the time, they're leaving something out. I'm sorry for the valid rare occurrences of unfairness or mistreatment, but take comfort in knowing that officials' organizations are constantly striving to improve themselves and their membership. The standards of being an official are high, professionalism is a must for success, and the people that stick it out are cut from a rare cloth, and they live with little gratitude from the participants of the sport.

Unfortunately, it's significantly easier to become a coach.


BRIAN JOHNSON, RETIRED BASKETBALL REFEREE
OKLAHOMA CITY

[Bart Tyson]

Nice job Brian.

[BigDave]

Originally posted by PublicBJ
My letter to Les and the editors:

This is in response to the above referenced column from February 13th:

TO LES WINKELER AND THE EDITORS:

I'm sure that the coach was completely forthright and included all of the pertinent facts when she "recounted" the exchange. If I am silly enough to believe that, and that the events happened as the coach explained it, then the technical was probably not have been warranted. I wasn't there to say for sure. But I highly doubt that we're getting the whole story. We're getting one side of it, and if these other veteran officials that you consulted with are worth their salt, they would qualify their answer in the same way. Unfortunately, most referees are prohibited from ever giving their side of the story.

In my years of officiating (and watching) high-school women's basketball throughout this country, I've never perceived a double-standard on how male and female coaches are treated by officials. Do they exist in some isolated cases? Almost certainly, referees are human and have faults like anyone else. But not in general.

I've heard many stories from coaches about mistreatment, and over 90% of the time, they're leaving something out. I'm sorry for the valid rare occurrences of unfairness or mistreatment, but take comfort in knowing that officials' organizations are constantly striving to improve themselves and their membership. The standards of being an official are high, professionalism is a must for success, and the people that stick it out are cut from a rare cloth, and they live with little gratitude from the participants of the sport.

Unfortunately, it's significantly easier to become a coach.


BRIAN JOHNSON, RETIRED BASKETBALL REFEREE
OKLAHOMA CITY

Good job, partner!!

[bluezebra]

"BTW - ...and am a card-carrying member of the National Association of Sports Officials."

All that means is that you pay the yearly dues. It doesn't verify any level of expertise or competence.

Bob

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bluezebra
"BTW - ...and am a card-carrying member of the National Association of Sports Officials."

All that means is that you pay the yearly dues. It doesn't verify any level of expertise or competence.

Bob, I took that comment as simply being upfront about his background, so that nobody could say he has a hidden agenda. I don't think he was claiming any special status.

Chuck

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by bluezebra
"BTW - ...and am a card-carrying member of the National Association of Sports Officials."

All that means is that you pay the yearly dues. It doesn't verify any level of expertise or competence.

Bob

Chuck (above) took my meaning in the correct context, and it at least shows my level of competence in obtaining liability insurance when I officiate, keeping up with all that's going on in my chosen hobby, taking advantage of discounts on relevent publications, etc.

And - it certainly gave me more validity when I testified in committee hearings in front of my state legislature on our state's sports officials assault legislation, which passed, by the way, partly due to the help we received from NASO.

[JAdams]

Les:

I am a high school basketball official in the midwest, and just finished reading your 2/13 article about your daughter's basketball coach receiving a technical foul. Here's my feedback to you...

If your account is accurate, I agree that the official was unwarranted in what he said about watching your daughter's feet when he passed by the coach.

However, I can assure you, that if any coach (male or female) tells me to "not be a smart ***," I will bring out the T immediately. We're taught by our state's high school athletic association to not tolerate any profanity from players or coaches, and that comment would certainly pass for profanity in my book. We officials cannot control what a coach says to his/her players, but we are obligated to penalize profanity when we hear it publicly.

It's easy for you journalists to pass judgement while sitting in the stands. But put on the stripes for a year and see if your perspective doesn't change.

[tharbert]

From: Les Winkeler
To: "'Tom Harbert'"
Subject: RE: Gender Biased
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:49:19 -0600
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)


Tom,
As Shakespeare said, "I think you doth protest too much."
I've had other referees write me and say that the referee in question
baited her into the technical -- and, these referees said this is clearly
wrong.
And, by the way, I go to plenty of schools and attend plenty of games. I
wrote this column only after watching several more games. I'm not saying all
officials are biased, but if there is one, that's one too many.
Les

I still say:
I agree the ref taunted the coach if it really happened the way it was written. I have my doubt that it was the first exchange of the game. I still think it's apples and oranges. Was the technical wrong? The coach is the one who decided to use the expletive in a condescending way in front of a group of teenage girls. It's a judgement call. And how does that equate to gender bias which was the point of the article.

BTW, MP, I loved your response!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by tharbert
Tom,
As Shakespeare said, "I think you doth protest too much."

That he doth misquote the bard.

Of course, not only did he misquote Gertrude's words, he missed the whole point of what she said!!

What's to be expected of someone in collusion with a coach?

[Richard Ogg]

Hi Les,

I know you've received numerous email in reference to your article on February 13 on Double Standard for Female Coaches. As a HS basketball official I do not consciously treat female coaches any different than male coaches. As for your case, I will not pretend to know all the facts, and in particular any exchanges between the coach and the official before the final exchange that led to the Technical Foul. But I do have a short list of observations:

• Gender is not an acceptable reason to treat a coach differently.
  
• If an official baits a coach he/she should be reprimanded. (This is not a formal process.)
  
• If a coach uses profanity they should receive a Technical Foul.
  
• If an official fails to assess a Technical Foul for profanity he/she should be reprimanded.
  
• When a high school teacher (coach) uses profanity in a classroom (gym) the administration should consider replacing the teacher (coach). It doesn't matter if he or she is baited; they are required to have more maturity than that. (Obviously this is not a first-offense response.)
  

Regards,
Richard Ogg