QF1Y: Mechanics Question Lead/Trail
 

Lets see how well I can explain this relatively common situation...

2 man mechanics, trail is table-side, A1 has ball, pretty much right in front of trail. Entry pass into post player A2 who is on the block. Lead is on the far side of the court, lets say with other players moving through the key (semi-obstructed view).

So, entry pass is:
a) errantly thrown, just goes out-of-bounds on endline.
b) is muffed by A2 out-of-bounds
c) is deflected by a reaching B2 defender out-of-bounds
etc, etc.

What is a rock solid way to handle this out-of-bounds violation call, from both the lead (who, I'm suggesting, has a poor angle to see who last touched this ball which has gone out-of-bounds on their line) and trail.

As the lead I have just blown whistle, looked to partner and gotten no indication (like, "what do you need me for?") and as trail I have blown the whistle and felt like I had overstepped my bounds by calling (or trying to) on my partners line.

This seems like a fairly common scenario, so looking for some advice on how to really do it right.

Word.

As the trail, do nothing with the whistle unless your partner misses it going out of bounds and there's a delay without a whistle.

A subtle thing you can do if you are absolutely sure the ball was not deflected is to start walking the other way. Your partner, if he has any doubt, will pick up on that. Same thing -- take a step or two up towards the baseline if you are absolutely sure it was deflected and your "staying here."

My .02 cents.

First, discuss these issues in pre-game. Second, you did right to make eye contact with your partner. Third, when one of you gets the "what do you got look?", one of you needs to grab the bull by the horns, make an emphatic call (like you definitely KNOW what happened and definitely DID see it), and put the ball in play quickly, and move on.

* PS - I like Rich's suggestions too.

Thanks. This is an excellent suggestion.
 

maybe when I was lead and getting nothing from my partner he was moving away and I didn't pick up on it!

When I'm Lead, I have no problem putting a hand straight up, hitting the whistle, and verbally asking my partner for help when I have a poor look at a play.

When I'm Trail, I'm not going to do anything (except maybe take a few steps in the other direction as Rich says) unless my partner asks for help. Even if I believe that he missed the call. If he makes a call, he can live with it. If he wants help, he can ask.

I agree and only add that if you didn't see anything and partner indicates he is unsure or has not seen it - don't hesitate - hit the AP arrow. We are all human and sometimes mistakes are made or things are missed.

re: When Trail

But I've got the coach right behind me going ballistic! He knows the call was wrong, and knows that I know (or should know). The pass came from a player right in front of me. I had a great angle and saw the play. I'm still going to defer to an un-asking partner?

Nope. Go in and tell him/her what you saw. They* might have something different / later. It's up to them* to change their* call.

* -- Specifically worded for Nevada.

It does not hurt to go to your partner and tell him what you saw. Even if your partner iinsists his call is correct, at least you made the effort to give your partner information.

If your partner accepts your information, let him/her change their call.

If I'm 110% (that's for you scrappy) sure, I'll go have a quick word with my partner and give him a chance to change his call. No one else will hear us, though.

Agreed. If you blow the whistle, then look to your partner for help, be prepared to go to the arrow if he can't help you.

LOL!!!!

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../funnypost.gif

Peace

And that's good because... you've tried to please a coach?
Any official who makes a call should be sure of the call. Any official who is unsure should be seeking help and NOT making a call. Hence if my partner makes a call, he must be sure, and therefore why would I want to go stick my nose in his business?

I'll be quite honest, here. My regular partner is going to give the subtle signals I mentioned above. If he doesn't and I'm not 100% sure but leaning in one direction, I'll call it that way rather than go to the arrow (and I'm not really hesitating more in my call than I would for any other). If the game's a complete blowout, then it's even easier to make the call ;)

It's only when I have no idea whatsover and my partner doesn't that I'd go to the arrow, and I don't think that's happened more than 1-2 times in the past 3 seasons.

I certainly won't do that because the mere act of going to your partner lets everyone in the gym know that you think that he got it wrong. IMO that isn't being a good partner. I suggest that you simply freeze and make eye contact or do something else subtle and then he can come to you, if he is unsure, or stick with his decision and inbound the ball.

Personally, I've never understood this obsession with coming to fix one's partner's OOB decisions. For those who advocate this why doesn't the same principle apply for fouls? If your partner calls a foul and you are 100% sure that he missed it, do you go over and talk to him before he reports?

If I am asking for help, I am asking because the ball came from a place where it is very possible I am screened off. I do not like going to the arrow at all. It looks like you and your partners do not know what they are doing. Give the ball to someone. You are not always going to be perfect on an out of bounds calls and even when you have the best look, someone thinks you screwed them up. Very few times as well do coaches get that upset over an out of bounds call anyway. If my partner is asking for help, I am giving them a direction.

Peace

Oh, you're into the cute eye winks subtle hand signal thing to communicate to your partner that he f'ed it up. That's fine.

Me? I'm a big boy & if my partner comes to me cause he thinks I missed an OOB that's fine. Remember that trust your partner thing? Works here too. If I know I'm right the call stays the same, if I really didn't get a good look then I'll change it. Either way he's getting a big thank you from me.

Ah right, the slippery slope. Nice try.

:D

I'm talking about when you blow your whistle, hesitate and look at your partner. At this point, you almost have to go to the whistle. I had one of these this year where I went with the way I was leaning after the delay, rather than the arrow. Of course, I had to put the ball in play in the hip pocket of the coach the call went against.

Doesn't your partner trust you? If so, then why is he coming over?
If you didn't really get a good look then why are you making a call in the first place?

PS The slope argument makes the point of just how ridiculous engaging in this action is. Afterall, isn't a foul more important than an OOB? So why are we fixing OOB calls and not foul calls? Completely ludicrous.

I had a partner a few weeks ago who from the T blew an out of bounds on his sideline and immediately and emphatically threw his thumbs up for a jump ball..from the L I was pretty sure who I saw who it go off of (near the corner), but it happened so fast and he was so emphatic in making the statement that he had no idea:) that I just stayed out of it and put the ball back in play quickly...there were other issues this day with this partner though as well, too much to get into.....

Well you're right, if I know I didn't get a good look I'm going for help. But sometimes something happens outside of your range of vision that you can't possibly know about... like a tip on a pass outside of your primary. And all of us have had those "...geeze on second thought..." moments when we replay the play back in our minds. Well let's see. If you're U and the R lines up the jumpers the wrong way to start the game you're not gonna say something? Or if your partner is administering a FT with the players not properly lined up...or if he's about to give the ball to the player you just know is not the right shooter...?

Watch out for that first step, it's a big one.

I'm lead...I see Defender's backside from across the paint. Pass comes in..ball goes out of bounds. I'm sure it was a bad pass by the offense. I call it out off offense. What I didn't see was the defender's hand reach in and touch the ball, which the Trail saw clearly.

I guess in Nevada the players always arrange themselves so the officials always have perfect sight lines. I need to move there.

I agree. If my partner saw the deflection that I didnt see, I want to know. You get some indication by the reaction of the players too. Your partner sharing what he sees helps get the ball to the correct team. I am not offended or embarassed by my co-official sharing this info. Yes Nevada I only offer this for OOB situations where we are encouraged to assist our partners. It is still their call. Fouls and other infractions we live and die by them and discuss we each other at our first opportunity as what was seen or why specifically called. This too builds trust.

:(

No, Frank, in Nevada the Lead blows his whistle and asks his partner for help instead of signalling a direction for the OOB when looking at a player's backside and is unable to see the ball the entire way.

And I am probing the logic behind that. Why come in and help with OOB, but do nothing when a partner calls a foul?

Come on though Nevada, there are times when you are 100% certain that you have the correct call and there is something that you just didn't see. If it has never happened to you then you are either that good or that lucky, b/c every pregame that I have been a part of has included this statement made either by me or whoever is the R - "If I make an OOB call and you see something that you are 100% certain of that is contrary to my call, come in and tell me. I'll consider it, but I will always change my own call" IMO it looks better to make a call and then change it maybe what - once every second or third game that this comes up, than it does to be constantly looking for help when you were probably right in the first place.

Dan,
I'm actually serious about this issue. See my post directly above.

As for my answers to what you have posed, I have to say that the circumstances are entirely different there. Your partner hasn't made a call of any kind in those situations, he is simply about to incorrectly administer the game. I have no issue whatsoever with stepping in to prevent a screw-up. However, the issue that I've brought up in this thread deals with stepping in AFTER your partner has MADE a call and a screw-up. What is the reason for living with the screwed up foul calls, but fixing the wrong OOB calls (or backcourt violations, double dribble, traveling, etc.)

What makes a foul call so special?

B/C the level of subjectivity with a foul is about 10X that of an OOB call and depends so much more on what look you had at the play. Which is why we say don't come in with help if you just "think" you saw it, come in if you have definite knowledge of something...

So am I.

Your slippery slope begins at the distinction between fouls and violations. Mine begins elsewhere. I can't help you explain why you view fouls/violations as something separate and distinct from the rest of the rules. So let's just agree to disagree, I'll keep doing it the right way & you'll do it your way.

That's a very reasonable answer.

Now let's push the envelope and inquire whether anyone would attempt to "help" their partner when he has obviously kicked a call on a play that was directly in front of you (well within your PCA) and despite you being 100% sure that there was no foul on the play, your partner has called one.

On a foul, the official should have the "entire play".

On an OOB call, the official might only have part of the play -- that is the ball can come from one area and go out on another.

So -- why not ask for help all the time? Because 99% (SWAG) of the time seeing just part of the play is sufficient. So, make the call and then have the partner provide help.

Yes, there are other ways to do it. But, by tradition, this way has been decreed to be "best" for the game.

Help ???
 

This is always part of my pregame:

For out-of-bounds help, let's get it right. Come together for a change if needed. If I have no idea and I look to
you for help, just give a directional signal. No need to come to me. Just point. If I signal but I get it wrong,
then blow the whistle and come to me. Tell me what you saw and let me decide if I’m going to change it.