Block/Charge out of primary
 

I'm the R and the T on the play.
Jump ball. A1 passes to A2. A2 driving down towards the basket on the opposite side in front of the lead. I'm the T trailing the play. A2 dribbler contacts B1 at lane line and B1 falls to the ground right in front of the lead who has a good angle on the play. No call. A2 is then fouled by B2 called by the lead.

Would you as the trail come in and make the charge call? I thought a whistle was needed because of the contact and displacement but passed because it was right in front of the lead.

If it was one of those situations where you said "OH MY GOD, THAT'S A FOUL!!" then you should have had a whistle.

If it was more of "Oh, that looked like it might have been PC/block" then leave it alone and trust your partner.

Let your partner live and die with it. You are not responsible for the whole court. That's why you have a partner.

I disagree, If an egregious foul happens out of my area and I happen to catch it, I'm waiting for whistle, if it's not there, I'm grabbing it.

I also think I am responsible to some extent for the whole court. I'm trail and ball goes OB on endline and my lead is looking somewhere else for any reason and no whistle, are you going to let him live and die with it?

Semantics yes, but live and die might be a little harsh.

That's why you have a partner as you say.

Who's call is it, the popcorn guy's?

If it is a major contact, I have no problem with you stepping in. I like rockyroad's take - if it makes you say "Oh My God!", then take it.

Maybe Lead thought B1 flopped.

You're maybe 40 feet away...partner is maybe 10 feet away. I think I'd trust my partner on that one.

[QUOTE=hbioteach] A2 dribbler contacts B1 at lane line and B1 falls to the ground right in front of the lead who has a good angle on the play. QUOTE]

You say it all right there. Lead has a good angle, why go in there? In a case like this, when I have a chance I'll ask my partner what they saw just to get an idea of their thinking. I would not phone this one in from trail unless you are sure they didn't see the whole play or if they happen to be straight lined for some reason.

Exactly. That's being a great partner and keeping you BOTH out of trouble. It's also good for the game.

I disagree. I had a game earlier this year with a very good official that I had never worked with. Early in the game I'm L. There's a one on one play on the C side of the lane. The defender goes down with a huge bang and I thought, "Geez, that looked bad from here." I talked to my partner soon afterwards and he had the kid taking a dive. I'm glad I didn't hit the whistle. Yes, there are times when you have to go out of your area, but if your partner has a good look, let them call their area. The reason we have coverage areas is because that is the area where we have sight lines and angles. When we go out of that area, the chances that we are wrong increase greatly.

You used the operative words "thought" "looked" ...not real positve. IMO you done good holding whistle. There has to be no doubt, which includes a good sight line.

You thought? When you think you see a travel, do you call it? Just sayin' we gotta know there is contact. Seems like the OP knew there was contact.

I've picked up that PC call before and have had others pick it up for me. In either case, they're rare cases. We're a team and let's get the play right.

I agree, but the OP also says that the L had a great angle. If my partner has a great angle they must have a better look than I do as T. I'm not going in on that one as there must have been more to the play than I saw.

Brain fart. You've had them, I've had them. Only JR has never had a brain fart. He's ridicously consistent.

JR doesn't HAVE brain farts. JR IS a brain fart!

Just saying.:D

Ask yourself this: Where did the play originate from?

If it orginated from the lead area good no call;

If it orginated from your area and you clearly seen the contact by A1 on B1 it's your call. Why did you pass on the contact? Please don't say because the lead had a better angle.

More info.
 

I was at the 3 point line on the opposite side of the lane and had a goog look at the play. I spoke with my partner at halftime who said he agrees that we should have had something on the play but froze on the initial play.

I always grab a non PC/block out of my primary if I think, "That's definitely a foul we have to get." But, I have had "no calls" as the L, which my partner as the T has called blocks. That's why I passed on the play.

2 Person.

If you were T, and were at the 3-point line on the opposite side of the lane, where was C? This is his call, unless L had already rotated.

Either way if it was on the opposite side of the court, I have a hard time seeing how this is your call...

It was a two whistle game

I believe that he was working a 2-man game.

I think the OP said it was 2-man. If so, and his partner had a good look, then I'm letting him live or die with the call. Me personally, he would probably have to knock him into the stands before I come all the way across the court down on the endline, right in front of the L to call that play in a 2-man game. If my partner comes back to me and says he froze, then we turn it into a learning experience for him.

Eh, shazam. Time to bring out my hooked on phonics and actually read the posts again. My apologies. :(

If lead is on the baseline and trail is at the 3 point line and the contact occurs in the grey area of primaries...FT line...trail undoubtedly has the best look at this play.

No need, I've starred in that movie.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this. If a play is right in front of my partner and they had a good look, I am going to pass on that "foul" or contact as well. Sometimes we need to let our partner make calls that they are on top of. If they screw up, then that is their issue. If I am watching my partner's area and making calls, who is watching my area?

Peace

I'm with Rut here.

I also forgot the other important part of my pregame... The proverbial lets "TRUST YOUR PARTNER"!

In a HS game, we should have a whistle 99% of the time there is a crash and bodies are on the floor. If you are 110% certain it was a foul, I would get it. Getting a block charge wrong at the beginning of the game is bad. Not having a whistle on a block/charge on the first play of the game is recipe for a rough and out of control game.

Whether you are the 'R' or not shouldn't have any bearing on whether you make the call. I think another factor to consider whether you come in and get the call depends upon the level of experience of your partners. A rookie may not know how to react to that play.

What do you do when bodies crash to the floor and it is not a result of any illegal activity? I disagree that what happens in the first minute means the rest of the game is going to become rough.

They are not going to learn by you calling everything for them either.

Peace

I generally agree with this and subscribe to it, but don't you think there is an inherent flaw with this line of thinking? You aren't going to know if your partner had a "good look" until the next opportunity to talk to your partner...maybe he/she got straightlined, maybe another player or players crossed between him/her at the point of impact, maybe a bug flew in his/her eye...from the L for instance, you aren't necessarily going to know what kind of look your partner is getting at the play from C, they could be in textbook position and still not get the best look...I usually make the point in pregame that if you are 100% certain of a foul in my primary get it...don't guess, but if you are sure that it was a foul I am not getting into a pissing contest about it...just my opinion, but I think it makes us all look better...your point about "who is watching my area" is valid as well though, but I guess it comes down to the lesser of the evils?

I agree with Rut here as well. Bad things happen when you extend your coverage areas.

I find this type situatuion most difficult during Rec games when I'm with a very junior partner who is just learning the game. I don't want to reach into his area, I want him to call the game and know I have his back and trust his judgement. But, from where I may stand it looks bad, and both coaches look to me to make the call. Of couse, one will be happy and one not so much..... It's all judgement and situational to me. Sometimes I reach and get it, other times I defer. If I do reach though, I talk to my partner at the first opportunity and explain why.

A slight amendment - bad things CAN happen when you extend your coverage areas to make ON-BALL calls...

But like I said in an earlier post, if there is a play that makes me say "OH MY GOD!!!", then I want a whistle on it - regardless of who it comes from...those are the plays that get us into loads of trouble.

The OP did it right on the floor. He let his partner's call (a no call) stand rather than inserting himself into a spot where he thought his partner had a good look. In hind sight, he was right. His partner did have a good look. He's only questioning himself because it was the rare case where the primary official just froze. It's a learning experience for the partner, not the OP.

It seems from reading the OP that it wasn't a train wreck, and from T you can't always tell if it was a flop or not. IOW, it doesn't seem like one of the "gotta-get-its" that we see every now and then when our partners are straight lined or focussed elsewhere.

I've had enough partners dial in from T and grab a shooting foul right in front of my L position when I had a clean block to know better than to go reaching for anything other than a train wreck.

You know, I once had a conversation with a respected official. We discussed making calls outside your area when working with LESS EXPERIENCED officials.

The official took a stance similar to Rockyroad. However, He made a good point of always asking the LESS EXPERIENCED official what did he/she see on the play. Thus, turning it into a teaching point about how judgement can make or break an official(s) assignment status. Moving up versus not moving up.

I am not going to know every single time if my partner got a good look. This is also why I am not going to make a lot of calls in my partner's area. Also if you have done this for some time and worked a lot of 3 Person like I have and many I work with, there are certain plays and certain situations you know your partner needs help.

Yesterday I had a coach ask me about a play while I was the New Lead and my partner the New Trail passed on some contact. I knew that I had no way to make a call and I did not see what happen. It would have made our crew look really bad if I am on the end line making calls in the back court in front of my partner just to look good.

Peace

Somebody here (that person will probably identify himself) said something like:
It's okay to reach out of your primary to point out an elephant on the court, but be sure it's an elephant.

Along these lines, I have said, if you reach across the court to call one right in front of your partner, even if you're right, it kinda makes the crew look bad. If you make this call and you're wrong, it is unforgivable.

IOW, better to say, "What elephant?" than to say, "Look, an elephant!" but it turns out to be a hippopotamus.

First off the line is:

If you go fishing in your partner's pond it better be for a whale and not a minnow.

Second, as described this play ISN'T squarely in leads primary, it occurs at the FT line area so it's in that overlap area. IMO, as described, trail had the better look AND the play is coming from trails primary and the contact occurs where the primaries meet...this isn't a case of a deep trail calling a B/C in leads corner.

I will engage the official regarding the play at halftime. Try to figure out why there was no call. This sounds to me like the crew wasn't ready to officiate when the ball went up.

I think we are missing the point in that the play NEEDS TO BE A HIGH CERTAINTY CALL to come out of your area. If you are an young official or don't understand this term, stick to your primary.

I have plays like these referred to as "God and Country fouls" (in that everyone in the gym sees them). Those are the plays we need to be ready to help on. There are usually 2-3 plays in every game that somebody on the crew needs to get to keep control of the game.

I have said on this board that if you are going to call out of your area, it better be an elephant rather than an ant. Leave the ants alone and get the elephants. BTW, this is just a repeated phrase, I did not originate it.

Peace

Figured it was an old saying. Wherever it came from, the idea is sound.

This sounds presumptuous to me.

I have the site blocked at work now, and was busy anyway so I'm just now seeing this thread.

1. Looking at the description of the play, someone assumed the player was driving north/south parallel with the lane line - they didn't say it like that, but that is the picture that was painted. I'm not going to make that assumption, but point out the fact that more drives occur at a 45 degree angle and many occur on the endline.
2. What are the odds of the OP looking at this call without any other players being between him and the play, especially in a two person game? I don't think those odds would be very good.
3. Someone mentioned where the play originated and the fact that it is the Trail's call. I don't see enough information in the description to make that assumption, but I would doubt it would go down like that with two officials.

Without seeing the play, I would say the OP was ball-watching and should not have a whistle on this play. I can understand a whistle in a three person game that is really needed, but in a two person game from the Trail in front of the Lead? I don't think so.
One official cannot save the world every game! People, you just don't see all these plays by accident. We are having some threads on the board where officials are ball watching and we are excusing it in the name of getting the call right. Could I go into a game and find a spot to stand all game? If I'm going to look all over the court and make calls based on bad positioning why not?
I think we are all getting paid a little for doing this and with that money comes the responsibility to earn that money. If my partner agrees to give me some of his money I will be more than happy to do his work. Otherwise, let the assignor figure out that certain officials cannot cut it when the pressure is on.

We should always plan to work our primaries! Period. Quit planning to cherry pick calls all over the court. There is enough other crap to worry about. I always wonder how many off-ball calls are made in some of these officials' games. I bet there aren't many - everyone is watching the ball!

Blind Zebra, interesting you should point this out because in the OP the Trail passed on the contact initiated by A2 on B1(possibly offense foul). But, the lead got the defensive (foul B2 on A2).

So, now he may be kicking himself by not getting the first foul (which could have been offensive). Thinking his partner would get it since he had the better angle. Didn't happen. Now, his partner called a foul against the defense. Worse case scenerio, it makes the crew look inconsistent.

Although not exactly the same, but it does point to that dilemma.

I'm trail 2 person tableside...A1 takes B1 off the dribble and beats him my side below the FT line...Just before A1 gathers the dribble B1 grabs their arm toward my side and causes A1 to turn...I hold my whistle a beat to see if A1 can play through the grab, but B2 gets to the spot just inside the lane and there is contact...my whistle goes just before my partner who doesn't hear mine and comes out PC.

Now we have a problem. I go to him and say, "I have a grab before the shot and before the crash.

I take my foul on B1 to the table and since the coach had the same look I did, a simple, "The grab was before the shot so the ball was dead and the PC foul never happened," satisfied the coach.

I think that you and I are reading this play differently. The original post says

It doesn't say "FT line", as you mention in your post. I'm seeing this contact as being on or very near the block, right in front of the lead. In that case, I'm leaving it alone.

If I'm wrong and your reading is right -- the contact is at the FT line -- then I'm more than happy to put a whistle on that.

Also (and this is not directed at blindzebra), somebody said that making this call keeps your partner and the crew out of trouble. I disagree completely. This is the only kind of play where coaches actually care about PCA's. :) "How can you call that from there!?!?! It's right in front of him!!!!" It makes it look like you're reaching -- which you are -- and it makes it look like your partner is inept.

74.23% of all statistics are pure fabrication! :)
 

Why? :rolleyes: You never saw two kids dive for a loose ball and crash? You never saw a kid drive off-balance to the basket, make contact with a defender and lose his balance, falling to the floor? I agree that most crash situations should get a whistle, but I think 99% is waaaaaaaaaaay too high. There is, after all, such a thing as incidental contact. And some of these crash situations, especially at lower levels, are the result of two clutzy kids who just can't get out of their own way. Hard to penalize one of them for that.

If you're 110% certain of anything, I'd go back to math class. :)

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/bs_sign.gif

See the definition of incidental contact.