What would you do?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If you have definite knowledge you can put time back on the clock. If you want to go home you run off the court ASAP.

Ha ha should have gone home! This is the issue though, what constitutes "definite knowledge"? I was the T, I was covering the last second shot and I had definite knowledge that there was "something" left when the L blew the ball dead. Problem is my eyes don't read 10ths of a second that fast, so I couldn't tell "exactly" how many there were. The three of us got together and all agreed that there was no way that the clock should have run out given when the whistle blew....I happened to be the R, so I suggested that we use .4 since we all agreed that given the time lag we judged that team A should have enough time to get off a shot (not a tip)...when I went over and informed the table both coaches were actually fine with it (team B just stood there when the horn went off which gave even more credence to our theory, nobody thought it should have run out)...as it turned out A1 inbounded to A2 on a curl around a screen and she caught the ball, "gathered", and then shot so I waved it off and she missed the shot anyway it was too slow...but we talked about it afterwards and we all agreed that what I saw on the clock was enough to pass the "definite knowledge" test....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Ha ha should have gone home! This is the issue though, what constitutes "definite knowledge"? I was the T, I was covering the last second shot and I had definite knowledge that there was "something" left when the L blew the ball dead. Problem is my eyes don't read 10ths of a second that fast, so I couldn't tell "exactly" how many there were. The three of us got together and all agreed that there was no way that the clock should have run out given when the whistle blew....I happened to be the R, so I suggested that we use .4 since we all agreed that given the time lag we judged that team A should have enough time to get off a shot (not a tip)...when I went over and informed the table both coaches were actually fine with it (team B just stood there when the horn went off which gave even more credence to our theory, nobody thought it should have run out)...as it turned out A1 inbounded to A2 on a curl around a screen and she caught the ball, "gathered", and then shot so I waved it off and she missed the shot anyway it was too slow...but we talked about it afterwards and we all agreed that what I saw on the clock was enough to pass the "definite knowledge" test....

WOW! There is so much wrong with the thought process expressed here that I'm feeling like I was just punched in the face by Evander Holyfield.
So, I'm just going to highlight the major problems.

1. If you didn't see a number, then you don't have definite knowledge. That's what definite knowledge means.

2. You can't suggest anything. You have to know. What you did was guess and that's not allowed. If you can't say I saw X on the clock, then you can't put any time back on.

3. So did she release the ball before the horn or not? You can't employ any other standard for making the call in such a situation (barring a clear timing error).
4. There is no "definite knowledge test". There is only definite knowledge.

Final summation thought: Why do people always want to invent strange concepts instead of just following the rules as written?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

WOW! There is so much wrong with the thought process expressed here that I'm feeling like I was just punched in the face by Evander Holyfield.
So, I'm just going to highlight the major problems.

1. If you didn't see a number, then you don't have definite knowledge. That's what definite knowledge means.

2. You can't suggest anything. You have to know. What you did was guess and that's not allowed. If you can't say I saw X on the clock, then you can't put any time back on.

3. So did she release the ball before the horn or not? You can't employ any other standard for making the call in such a situation (barring a clear timing error).
4. There is no "definite knowledge test". There is only definite knowledge.

Final summation thought: Why do people always want to invent strange concepts instead of just following the rules as written?

So are you saying that if she caught the ball, took two dribbles, then took a shot and the operator was slow to start the clock, you would count it when there was only .4 left? Nobody was counting while she took her two dribbles, so nobody has definite knowledge that the clock should have run out.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

So are you saying that if she caught the ball, took two dribbles, then took a shot and the operator was slow to start the clock, you would count it when there was only .4 left? Nobody was counting while she took her two dribbles, so nobody has definite knowledge that the clock should have run out.

If you don't have definite knowledge, how are you going to say that the try has to be no good?

This situation is exactly why you should ALWAYS count!

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you don't have definite knowledge, how are you going to say that the try has to be no good?

This situation is exactly why you should ALWAYS count!

What are you counting? She wasn't closely guarded, so what are you counting in this situation? I used two things to wave off the shot. First of all the horn was close enough to the shot where we could say that it was "simultaneous" and without video review wouldn't have mattered...I combined that with the common sense to know that she could not have made the movements that she made and get the shot off in .4....the only thing that technically matters is the first part of that, the second part is more thought process...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

What are you counting? She wasn't closely guarded, so what are you counting in this situation? I used two things to wave off the shot. First of all the horn was close enough to the shot where we could say that it was "simultaneous" and without video review wouldn't have mattered...I combined that with the common sense to know that she could not have made the movements that she made and get the shot off in .4....the only thing that technically matters is the first part of that, the second part is more thought process...

In this situation, I'm counting to one so that I can have definite knowledge that time has to have expired even if the clock is not properly started.

If the timer is a couple of tenths slow and the player actually gets .7 to make the play, that's the way it goes. I have no way of addressing that. That is the timer's job and I can't do it for him. Perhaps he's been a touch slow all game. Those are the breaks and part of the human factor in sports.

What I will not do is use some arbitrary standard such as you suggest based upon the movements of a player to declare the period over and the try no good. There is no rule basis for that.

Finally, if the horn came simultaneously with the release, then the try was not in flight when the horn sounded as required by the rule and therefore the ball is dead and the try doesn't count. The horn is what determines the call and that is for what you need to be listening. Don't bring other factors into it.

[Johnny Ringo]

in these type of situations ... Just count - it will make your life easier!

[chartrusepengui]

What I will not do is use some arbitrary standard such as you suggest based upon the movements of a player to declare the period over and the try no good. There is no rule basis for that.

First - I agree that with that amount of time left I am going to chop and count.

BUT - that said I understand what he is saying about the player movement and I guess the basis he might have used is that the Fed says you cannot catch and shoot with .3 sec or less - it has to be a tip. So, using that standard, if a player caught the ball it would have to be .4 and if they did any other motion it would be longer than that.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you don't have definite knowledge, how are you going to say that the try has to be no good?

This situation is exactly why you should ALWAYS count!

Nevada...are you counting in your head or are you giving a visible count? I think I know your answer but post it anyway...

Obviously with .4 we are only getting to 1.0 with our count and if the ball is not out of hands, we have dead ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Nevada...are you counting in your head or are you giving a visible count? I think I know your answer but post it anyway...

Obviously with .4 we are only getting to 1.0 with our count and if the ball is not out of hands, we have dead ball.

As I wrote in another recent thread, my count is going to be a visible arm swing so that it shows up on video. Leave no doubt.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As I wrote in another recent thread, my count is going to be a visible arm swing so that it shows up on video. Leave no doubt.

Nevada - you seem to be a "by the book" guy but then say that you are going to have a visible count with seconds left in a game with the ball in the frontcourt? There is no rule / mechanic for that.

You definitely have to put time back on the clock -- even if you aren't quite sure if it is 0.6 or 0.4 ... you have definite knowledge that there was time left and it is the right and fair thing to do!

And for all of you counters out there... How the hell do you count in tenths of seconds?!? Counting doesn't really do you a bit of good in the situation outlined here.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As I wrote in another recent thread, my count is going to be a visible arm swing so that it shows up on video. Leave no doubt.

So you want your unapproved mechanic video taped? What's the difference between a silent count to yourself and a unapproved visible count? I'm not trying to be smart a**, but I'm curious?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Nevada...are you counting in your head or are you giving a visible count? I think I know your answer but post it anyway...

Obviously with .4 we are only getting to 1.0 with our count and if the ball is not out of hands, we have dead ball.

Having been a hobbyist muscisian for a long time, I'm counting 16th notes at 60 bpm. If I get to the third one before the horn, 0.5 has elapsed and the clock started late. No basket.

(corrected spelling for juulie's enjoyment)

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Having been a hobbiest muscisian for a long time, I'm counting 16th notes at 60 bpm. If I get to the third one before the horn, 0.5 has elapsed and the clock started late. No basket.

Well, you might be the hobbiest musician around, but I don't think that's what you meant, eh? s/b Hobb-y-ist. Just saying...

kbilla -- what you do is whatever thought process you are going to do, and then DON"T POST THAT THOUGHT PROCESS ON THE BOARD. You post the question without admitting what you did. That way you get the answer you need for next time, without the abuse. Got it?