Team foul but ? which player...
 

I had a sitch in one of my games Saturday that I am curious about...

Shooting foul: As I move off baseline to report, 32 walks in front of me....I report red 32, give illiegal hands signal for the hit on the arm ...then look back and realize that I think I said the wrong number, turned to look at both players and still think it was red 35....I then changed my call to the table.

Table clock operator (parent from red team) tells me 35 was on the other side of the lane and couldn't have made the shooting foul, it was 32. I said, no 35, he is the one that hit #4 on the arm during the shot....He insists it was 32 and that I was absolutely wrong.

Now I'm a little concerned but I was sure it was 35 and I accidentally said 32 cause he walked in front of me.....So I confer with my partners about what I saw, reported and what the table gave me as info....I told them I was sure it was 35 but wanted to be sure ...they didn't have anything to offer to contradict what I saw and they said they were fine with my call...

After the game, another official tells me if this ever happens and the official is not sure that you can mark it as a team foul and not charge a player.....Is this correct and is there any provision for it in the case book?

I ask because it was 35's 5th foul during a very good, close game. I wanted to get clear on handling that. Perhaps I was wrong...it's not a big deal, but I want to get things correct......Red won the game in OT by the way...

It has to be charged to someone.

If all else fails go into the lane and ask, "Who fouled him?";)

If I screw up, I'm giving a team foul. Although, I've been involved in a who committed the foul scenario you mentioned.

There's no provision for just giving a team foul...sombody has to get it.

I'm doing a Varsity game, somebody is getting the foul. Our Lady of Perpetual Motion, sixth grade girls game, I may give a team foul, and by the post I'm sure it was a kids game.

I'm aware there is no provision for a 'team' foul.

This is why officials find themselves in trouble.

So the 6th grade girls don't deserve you doing it right?

Those games are not throw away games, in fact they may be the most useful games you will work. Screwy plays, tons of call selection choices, less physically taxing so you can work on using your off hand on dead ball signals and violation calls, crisp reporting, etc...

I absolutely despise the "it was just a kids game" attitude and excuse...do it right or don't do it at all.:rolleyes:

When we decide to set aside a rule because its a lower level game we do the player/coaches/fans & most importantly your fellow officials a huge disservice.

The lower level games is where we get the chance to enforce the majority of the rule book. Those obscure rules that we never get to administer @ higher level games almost always come up @ the lower level games.

IMHO..When they do come up and we decide to set aside the rule we train the coaches/players & fans the wrong rule administration. This then sets our fellow officials up for failure when the play happens to them with the same team and they administer it the correct way

What you learned: never, ever leave the spot of the foul without knowing who the foul is on.

Never.

While you're at it always know who will be shooting any free throws.

[QUOTE=blindzebra]This is why officials find themselves in trouble.

So the 6th grade girls don't deserve you doing it right?

Those games are not throw away games, in fact they may be the most useful games you will work. Screwy plays, tons of call selection choices, less physically taxing so you can work on using your off hand on dead ball signals and violation calls, crisp reporting, etc...

I absolutely despise the "it was just a kids game" attitude and excuse...do it right or don't do it at all.:rolleyes:[/Q


You're assuming alot here aren't you Spartacus?

I'll let you in on another secret that may get your panties in a bunch. If a team is getting killed at half, we might give them the ball to start the second half, even though it may be the other team's(quick sit down before you faint). I also had a handicapped youngster awhile back in a game and we made sure he made it to the line for a free throw, which he made incidently.

You probably would have sent him to the bench for not having his jersey tucked in

Yeh, I know, a foul in the first two minutes is the same in the last two, no matter what level, what game.

Did some park district a few weeks ago, third grade girls..........guess what? I passed on a few dozen travels(shudder)

Hey, go grab that three second call on little Molly whose team is down by 30 in the fourth.

Put down the Merlot and quit pontificating.

Put down the whistle and do all the officials, players and coaches in your area a favor.

I can't, it's stuck up your rear.

And I'd still use it better than you.

Does someone need some hot chocolate?

That's because that's where your head is.

If he can put down the Merlot maybe.

You just put into words something that has been dawning on me.
 

Never leave the spot without... one problem I have is, ok i've got 44 red with the foul. 31 White is my shooter... turn to the table... 31, 31? Wait who on red?

I'm just trying to get a better feel for your opinion.

Vocalize.

Not only do you pass the info onto your partner(s) and players but by doing so you get it into your brain.

44 red hold, 31 white you are shooting...now go to the table.;)

Jerseys Too Big
 

The style of jerseys today is for them to be oversize. I called a foul on #4 a few nights ago. When I came back to admisnister the free throw, I saw that the fouler was actually #14. Her jersey had folded over on itself so that only the "4" showed.

Work enough games, this is my 27th year, and you are going to eventually report the wrong number, and possibly forget the correct number, as you try to figure out where to switch, not to make a long switch, is it the bonus, or the double bonus, is it the fifth personal foul, who is the shooter, the coach is politely, or not politely, asking you a question,etc. When this has happened to me, I try to get help from my partner first, the table second, and if all else fails, ask the players. If I can't get help from anyone, and don't want to make an educated guess, is there any basis, at all, for assigning a team foul ,without the corresponding personal foul?

I know some officials who make a fraction out of the two numbers. For some reason it's easier to keep a fraction in their minds than two separate numbers.

Nope.

Guessing ??????
 

Guessing is better than using Rule 2-3 ??????

Neither one is a very good option. At least with guessing you have a 1-in-5 chance of getting it right :D

Prevent, Prevent
 

You're right. The best option is to get it correct the first time, and everytime, but sometimes we screw up. Good mechanics, good communiction with your partner, good table personnel, etc. should allow you to get it right 99 and 44/100 % of the time, or better, but sometimes, once in a "Blue Moon, ......

That's what my mentor always told me he did. But, it never worked for me.

How come fullor30 and Old School never post in the same thread. ROFLMAO :D

Boy am I a bad boy.

MTD, Sr.

I'll reply to you because you respectfully said "in your opinion". I do grammar school games and youth games because I love the kids, not because I need to fine tune my mechanics as was implied by 'blind'zebra. In 8 years of reffing and thousands of games I think I gave a team foul two or three times for the flow of the game and the particular situation that can't be relived here. I've always prefaced to the scorer, quietly, who maybe a Mom or 8th grader that "I goofed" so lets put down a team foul. I have too much respect for the game, players, parents and coaches to phone in a game. I come on time, dressed properly, hustle, and perform my duties as an official on the highest level and like you, don't like to see the indifference on occassion by officials for lower level games. I will say, I haven't seen much of this in past few years in my area which is good.

If you interpreted my giving a team foul to an underclass game as being flippant and disrespectful at that level it wasn't intended to be.


We can argue about rules and what is the right call etc., but for someone to pontificate and come of as a pompous jerk, gives me a little insight to their people skills. I won't tolerate that and will respond in kind.

ABSOLUTELY!!! Agree 100%. Tell yourself who committed the foul and tell your partner(s) who is shooting. EVERY TIME!!!

I understand where your coming from if your working with very young kids like it sounds like you are. Nothing wrong with ignoring minor violations @ that level. Anyways most of the time the families are just there to watch the kids participate.

I haven't really worked with very young kids in a while. When I did I would make sure to take the time to explain to the kids & coaches what they did wrong in hopes of helping them to understand what not to do the next time.

I mis understood what you were implying by lower level games. I think once these kids get to the age/grade where their more competitive then it is up to us to enforce the rules the same across the board. Doing so respects the players/coaches/fans & the game.

Btw. . .
 

WTF?!?!? :confused:

I had a very similar situation. I called a foul, reported it properly and went on with the game. 5 minuts later the scorer waves me over and said who was that last foul on? I couldn't remember and neither could my partner. Visiting book didn't have it either.

I said well just give it to the kid on the bench with 0 fouls. Scorer said nope, not gonna do it. Foul totals all added up, just no idea who that one foul was on. This pissed me off cause it was his screw up in the first place and now he's become defiant.



What do you do for this 7/8 grade game?


I know what I did was not correct but A. I didn't know what was correct. B. with my way the totals are correct and the foul didn't hurt anybody.

Had it happen once - went onto court and asked who got the last red foul. I told them there was a problem at the scorers table. Kid fessed up right away. Took the # and made sure it was recorded. No more problem.

Message boards have the habit of not communicating the message, due to a variety of reasons.

I'll work just about any level if I feel like it and have no ego doing these games. I have an assignor who has been good to me, and I've helped him last minute with emergencies at lower level HS games.

Years ago when I first started, I had a partner for two freshmen boys games.

Turns out he reffed briefly in the NBA and had been a D1 official. He's good friends with the assignor and basically just does a few dates during the reason. It was a blast to work with someone that smooth.