Buddy calls with rules question
 

A buddy called me this morning about a call he had in a kids game last night. NF rules. After a violation by team B, A1 to inbound on the side. While the inbound pass is in the air, A2 and B2 foul each other for a double foul. The AP arrow is with team B. Should they give the ball to team B for an AP throw-in or use POI and give it back to team A even though there is no team control during a throw-in?

His point was that if they used the AP arrow, it seemed like they were penalizing team A for a foul that was equally caused by both teams.

What would you have told him?

The POI is the throw-in, as it hadn't yet ended. Therefore, I'm giving the ball back to A to inbound due to the original violation.

I'm probably wrong, but without any references right off hand, I would have told him the throw-in doesn't end until the ball is touched inbounds. The fouls were committed before the throw-in had ended.

Like I said, I'm probably wrong but oh well.

*Darn it, he beat me by a minute.

Sounds like the throw-in hadn't ended. Therefore, I think you've got to go AP.

Why does team control matter on a double foul?

It matters for POI situations.

What about the definition of POI?

(More specifically, 4-36-2(b)?)

:(

See post #7 by M&M.

Yeah.........

Ok, tell me there's an elephant in the living room - what am I missing?

Would your opinion be different if the thrower hadn't released the ball yet?

No team control though
 

First, a throw in ends the ball is legally touched, a foul or violation occurs, or the ball becomes dead. The throw in ended with the foul. Since neither team had control, go with the AP.

Reference, please. and be sure to include 4-42-5 (2006 reference) in the response.

Holy cow... massive elephant in the living room that I completely missed.

Ok, got ya now.

Tanner, you're all right! http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...images/lol.gif

This has to be one of the top 10 posts of the past five years. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../notworthy.gif

I would have told him the following: There is no team control on a throw-in Feds. So, since there was a double foul while the ball was NOT in either team control (still in the air). There is no choice but go to the arrow. Rules 6-3g; 4-36-2c will support.

Completely wrong. Rule 4-36-2(b) is the applicable rule. The double foul happened <b>DURING</b> a throw-in. Rule 4-36-2(c) says that no "infraction" is involved. A double foul is a rules infraction.

Jurassic is correct. Seems like many of us aren't really understanding the POI rule yet. That's not intended to be a slam on anybody on this forum, it just means that it isn't being taught well.

6-3g is applicable too!

It is my interpretation that the double foul was the interruption to the play. I would give the ball back to Team A for a subsequent throw-in.

I had this situation in a game last year; unfortunately, I cannot remember exactly how we handled it. I remember discussing with my partners, but do not recall the conclusion.

That's twice you've referenced "6-3g" and I can't find it in the book.

Metric equivalent?

If you are referencing rule 6-4-3(g), please note that the term "infraction" is stated in that rule also. Again, a double foul is an <b>infraction</b> of the rules. That is why neither 6-4-3(g) or 4-38-2(c) are applicable.

Wrong interpretation, rook.

Wrong interpretation or wrong rule referenced? I believe I referenced the wrong rule for the situation. I'm really trying to give rule support with my answers. If along the way, I make mistakes I can live with that. I'm only going to get better.

6-4-3(g) is the rule rule you're referencing, and the rule you're mis-interpreting. It indeed does reference using the AP for all double foul situations where there is no team control, however, as JR has pointed out, you left out the important part of that rule: "when no infraction is involved". If you read the definition of POI, in 4-36-2(b) it states POI is "A free throw or throw-in if the stoppage occured during this activity".

So, yes, there is no team control during a throw-in, but the POI goes back to the throw-in after the double foul, since the throw-in was not yet completed. Follow?

If you're referencing rule 6-4-3(g), then your interpretation is wrong. It's wrong for the exact same reason that 4-36-2(c) isn't applicable. Iow, what M&M said.

Ok, I understand since the throw-in was not completed and no team control and there was an infraction(s) the double fouls. POI will be the throw-in again entitled to Team A. Makes sense thanks. :)