end of game timing issue
 

Visitors ball under their own basket with 1.2 seconds left. A1's pass is intercepted by B1 who unsuccessfully asks for a time out before landing OOB. But, simultaneously with the whistle or a tiny fraction afterward, the buzzer sounds, clock shows 0:00, game over. From the description I got, it sounds like the clock may have started before the pass was touched. The question is, even if the official sees the clock start to move while the pass is in the air, there is no way to make a correction here, correct?

A footnote: Visitors' coach threw a fit, saying time should be put back. Officials apparently had a lengthy discussion about the play, during which visitors' fans threw stuff all over the court. Then, apparently thinking the game was not over, the visiting players scurried around and cleaned up the debris.

A better question is why was B1's TO request unsuccessful? If he caught the pass while in the air and asked prior to landing OOB, you grant it. Even if he didn't, it's a dead ball after landing OOB and if he asks then, you should grant it. :confused:

This is why the fed needs a touching equals X amount of time off rule.

This is a timers error, the last known time is 1.2...there is only a game over provision for an officials error.

This should be A's ball at the spot of the OOB violation with 1.2 remaining.

New rules change this past year
 

If an official has direct knowledge of a timing issue, they can resolve it. In this case, if you knew you had 1.2 sec and a timeout was called at first touch, you could adjust this.

Are you saying that the official saw the clock start while the ball was in the air before it was touched??? Why wouldn't he be able to put time back on?

To what?

If B called timeout while in control before going OOB then the timeout should be granted and there is no OOB violation.

I'm just going by what was in the OP...in either case it is someones ball at that spot with 1.2 left.;)

-The clock starts when B1 legally touches the throw-in. NFHS rule 5-9-4.
- The clock now stops when the official granted the timeout request by B1. NFHS rule 5-8-3(a).
-The quarter ended when the buzzer sounded. NFHS rule 5-6-2.
-To put any time back on the clock, the official must have definite information as to how much time remained when the timeout request was granted. NFHS rule 5-10.

In this case, the officials(s) did not have any definite information that would allow them to put any time back on the clock. Game over, by rule.

You can't grant a TO request on the first <b>touch</b>. A TO request can't be granted until the player has <b>control</b>. Big difference, rules-wise. And you have to know the actual time remaining when you granted the TO request on the first player control. In this case, you don't have that information. That's why you can't adjust the time.

Rules rulez!

I wasn't there. I'm not sure whether they would have granted his request or not, but the buzzer sounded, more or less with the whistle, so it really didn't matter.

Based on what?

I'm not sure what they saw. I was saying even if they did see the clock start to move before the touch, it would be virtually impossible to have definite knowledge of how many tenths had run off when it actually was touched.

This is true if the official recognized the timeout request, then looked at the clock and saw a specific amount of time remaining. Apparently this was not the case. I do not know (yet) if the official recognized the request before the player landed or not.

To explain further, when I say that the clock may have started early, it may be totally unjustified. How long is a long time for a player to be in the air in a play such as this. I have no information about exactly how much height or distance was covered, but I picture a steal based more on anticipation than on any kind of incredibly athletic play. Also, we must remember that the catch was made while the player was already in the air, so if the timing was correct, the hang time was some amount in excess of 1.2. Is this a long time in the air or not?

It seems as though the rules as stated by JR would pretty much match "common sense". One second isn't very much time to control the ball and then signal a TO. I don't see how a coach could think they "deserve" any extra time, regardless of whether the clock was right.

Did the math myself. If this kid is traveling at 14 mph, (100 yd. dash in 14.6)
in 1.2 seconds he would cover nearly 25 feet. Sounds doubtful to me.

Just to add to this: I watched a Sports Science episode where they timed hang-time for some high-flying NBA players.

None of them were in the air an entire second. Just over .9 was the best.

So, while it has nothing to do with what you can and can't do as an official in this situation, there is absolutely no way 1.2 seconds can come off the clock between the time the player gathers the ball in the air and returns to the ground...:D

But how much time can come off after the kid lands and the official recognizes that and then sounds the whistle, AND THEN the timer reacts to the sound and stops the clock?

I can see the game legitimately being over in this case.

A couple of other comments:
The only way that the clock can be returned to 1.2 seconds, even if an official observes it start early, is if the official sounds the whistle IMMEDIATELY before the throw-in is touched inbounds. Of course, this will prevent the defense from making the steal.

The only way that a fraction of a second can be returned to the clock is if an official looks at the clock and sees time remaining AFTER the whistle is sounded for either the granting of the time-out or the OOB violation. Otherwise the game is over.

I agree with everything you say. All I was posting is that it was physically impossible for him to have the ball and be in the air that long. :D

Good stuff ... Hangtime!

Watch that video!

Agree except for the part highlighted. I think that the time of the whistle isn't really applicable. It's the time that you see on the clock when you mentally grant the TO. Thoughts?

This is a really good point, and brings up a question in my mind. The time when the TO is granted in my mind is when it counts? But in the middle of the game, the few seconds it takes for me to whistle it and the timer to stop the clock doesn't matter, so we don't sweat it. But near the end of the game, we are allowed to glance at the clock, and then set it to the time when we mentally grant the TO? Is that what you're saying?

I would think that any timing error could be caught by having a count upon the legal touching of the ball. Although I can't count in tenths, I wouldn't have any problem with putting .2 back on a clock if I felt the T.O. request occurred within my "one thousand one" assuming the clock ran out and i wouldn't have any problem with game over if my count reached "one thousand two" assuming the clock had not reached zero.

Which is why I always keep a count...even when I don't have a reason to count...during last second situations. ;)

I think that's just mental :confused: and have to disagree.
By rule, the timer is to stop the clock upon the official's signal (2-12-6). That means seeing a hand up or upon hearing the whistle. If that takes place, then no timing error has occurred. Are you now expecting the timer to read the official's mind?

Lah me. ;)

Oh? Try reading the applicable rule- R5-8-3----"Time out occurs and the clock, if running, shall stop when an official <b>GRANTS</b> a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a timeout."

No, I don't expect the timer to read an official's mind. I do expect an official to look at the clock however and note the time on it when he <b>GRANTS</b> the TO. That's definite information and it's the time that he can put back up on the clock, by rule(5-10).

Lah me, indeed......:rolleyes:

And how exactly does an official grant a time-out?

Are you advocating that he just thinks it, and that no action is required?

I have a count anytime the clock is supposed to be started and continue it until I can glance at the clock to make sure it got started. That allows me to always correct it if it doesn't get started. Under 10.0, I have a count on the starting and stopping.

I am not saying this 'holier than thou" because I have had to really really work hard at this AND I have learned the hard way with inept or homer clock keepers.

Mulk

Excellent advice. :)

See case book play 5.10.1Sitc. Note the wording <i>"...he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. <b>While doing this</b>, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter."</i> Note the phrase--<i>"while doing this."</i> It doesn't say that an an official has to <b>complete</b> blowing the whistle and giving the signal, as you are trying to claim. It simply states that if the official is looking at the clock at any time <b>during</b> the stop-clock process, then that's the time that gets put back on. That includes the <b>start</b> of the process too. You know--when you <b>start</b> blowing your whistle and when you <b>start</b> putting your hand up.

In this case being discussed, if the clock shows 0.00 and the horn has gone off when the official looks at the clock while granting the TO, then no time can be put back on.

We had a 5 page thread about this, more or less. http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=30448



There is no definitive answer in the books of when the timeout is granted. In rule 5-8-1, we learn that on a foul, held ball, or violation, the clock stops when these things are signaled by an official, not when they happen. 5-8-3 tells us that it stops when an official grants a timeout request. This led me to conclude that the granting and the signal were the same thing. Virtually everyone assured me that they were not.

We are discussing granting a timeout, are we not? The casebook play here deals with the signal to stop the clock. As noted above, we have concluded that granting a timeout and signaling it are not the same thing.

Good Advice
 

Good advice for all officials.

Yeah, and the timer is supposed to react to the official action's and stop the clock. There is no other reasonable way to do it without the PTI.

What I cannot agree to is the conclusion to which your thinking must logically lead. That being that a timing error occurs every time that an official grants a time-out. That simply is not a reasonable interpretation of the NFHS rule.

I guess if a player was thinking about shooting the ball with .5 seconds to go but doesn't get the ball out of his hands until after the clock reads 0.00 should be allowed the basket if its successful. I mean he was thinking about it then, so the fact he didn't release it in time is irrelevant. This from the guy who is all about the rules. WOW!

Yup. And your point is?:confused:

We're talking about a specific situation; a situation where the clock may have not been stopped properly. To wit, we're discussing the application of rule 5-10. In the case being discussed, if the decision by the calling official is that the timer actually did stop the clock correctly in the granting of the TO request, then no adjustment can be made. The quarter is over. However, if the decision is made that the timer did not stop the clock correctly, then we have to determine <b>IF</b> we can put time back on the clock using definite knowledge. If so, what is then in dispute is <b>when</b> we <b>apply</b> that definite knowledge. I'm saying that you apply it when you <b>grant</b> the TO, as per the rule that I cited. You're saying that you can't apply the definite knowledge until after the stop-clock mechanic is completely over. Obviously, I disagree because I'm going by the strict language of rule 5-8-3.

See where I'm coming from now? I didn't expect TD21 to understand all that. Even though he dwells in the mythical and magical Land of College and Above, it's still simply beyond his capabilities. I sureasheck expected that you would though.

If I may...I'll jump in here late.

I have to admit...I skimmed this thread...so forgive me if I missed what I am about to propose.

Sooo, Nevada...if an official is looking at the clock, as he is in the process of granting a TO...but, the official fumbles around and does not get air in the whistle untill after the final horn sounds...are the Coach and team, that wanted the TO, out of luck?

If your answer is NO(the Coach is not out of luck)...you would grant the TO and put the appropriate time on the clock...then wouldn't you agree that JR's interp is correct?

Some officials may be quicker at the TO granting procedure...some officials are slower...some officials may fumble around with their whistle...shouldn't a team have confidence of knowing there can at least be consistency when applying the rules as JR has stated?

Personally, I do think that the team is out of luck and loses those few seconds. This is just a human mistake by an official. Mistakes get made throughout the game and calls get missed.
The same would be true if the official attempted to call a violation or a foul and fumbles around with his whistle, time isn't put back on the clock.

Can you imagine an official instructing the timer to reset the clock to 4:03 because that is when he intended to blow the whistle? That's ridiculous.

In fact, I had this exact situation in a game earlier this year. Team A scored and Team B gathered the ball and stepped OOB. I was the new Trail (tableside). My partner was the new lead (also tableside as it was 3-man and we had a C).

B1 throws the ball into the court, but B2 misses it and it bounces TWICE in the court and then goes OOB untouched on the sideline next to the C. There is a whistle which I assume is from the C, but he just looked at me, when the Trail came running in and said that the coach of Team B requested a time-out and he was late granting it. This situation made us look silly and almost caused the coach of Team A to take a T. After the game in the lockerroom my partner confessed that he had spat his whistle out of his mouth while attempting to blow it. That is what caused the severe delay. We had a laugh about it.

PS JR's point intrigues me, but I don't agree with it. I don't think that is a reasonable way to interpret the rule. We have a different understanding of when the clock SHOULD be stopped.

I was going to ask you about this, because I've always been taught in this type of situation to grant the timeout. Obviously it looked terrible in your situation because there was such a delay...

The better scenario is after a made basket by B, Coach B requests a TO and I see this request and wish to grant it, but in the time between when I register the request and when I start blowing my whistle, A gathers the ball. In your reading, I shouldn't grant the TO, correct? This is one I've always been taught, and always have, granted. Same in a "scrum heading to a held ball" or a trap with violation or foul type of scenario. If the request came before and as an official I just didn't process fast enough, I should grant the TO.

Interested in your and others' thoughts?

In your situation, you have recognized a properly requested TO. I see no reason why it should not be granted. The main issue in this thread is the clock when the TO is "granted." Naturally this is more important at the end of the quarter. You recognize a TO request by A1, and at that same instant you are able to see the clock behind him, which shows .6 seconds. As quickly as possible, you raise the hand and blow the whistle, during which time the buzzer sounds. Can you put the .6 back on the clock? Nevada and I say no. As long as we have no specific language in the books saying when a TO is considered to be granted, there is no way to absolutely settle this issue.

Agreed!

That said, if I can grant a TO regardless of player control because I recognized the request while there was PC, how can I not also make a clock change for the same purpose?

To me, it's easiest to do it this way, I'd simply argue that it needs to be one way or the other. Of course, if you can look at the clock after recognizing a TO request, you should also be able to blow the whistle at that point...

I can imagine an official(me) instructing the timer to reset the clock to 4:03 because that is what he/she(I) saw on the clock when he/she(I) <b>granted</b> the TO. Ridiculous? Not when rules 5-8-3 and 5-10 tell me to follow that exact procedure.

Try hard to stick to the situation being discussed without bringing in irrelevant plays. It makes for a better discussion. :)

Per above red in OP, why can't the Official that witnessed the clock running while the throw in is in the air, blow the play dead, reset the clock to 1.2 and give A1 the throw in back? 5-10

I agree with others about the TO request and grant. Game over if clock started properly. If we start adding/predicting/guessing 0.5 seconds or so "lag time", then you need to be consistant and do it for every whistle that stops the clock for the whole game. If you don't do it the whole game, then you sureasheck don't do it with 1.2 in the 4th.

Until I reach the college level with video replay....:)

This could be done if he whistles it dead before the touch which ends the throw-in, as I believe was noted earlier. But referring to the OP, my idea was that if the official realized after the fact that the clock must have started early, since the kid couldn't have stayed in the air that long, there was no way to make an adjustment then with the information he had available.

I fully understand the rule and its application. You've used the wording many times here, when you GRANT the timeout. It says GRANT, not when you decide in your head that you will grant the timeout. The definite knowledge has to do with a timing error, not an official being too slow in blowing his/her whistle and using the proper stop clock mechanics. I you didn't blow your whistle until 2 seconds after the horn went off are you going to go tell the coach, that you were thinking about blowing it at .8 but waiting because you know you are allowed to put time back on? The definite knowledge has to do with excess time running off the clock due to a timing error. Human reaction time, an official being slow is not one of the elements that allows us to put time back on. If it is I'd like to see where it says the official is allowed to put time back on the clock if he failed to blow his whistle in time to prevent the clock operator a chance to stop the clock before time expired.

It's okay to be a tad late because you are visually confirming that it is indeed the HEAD coach who is making the request. That is usually accepted without a problem. However, timing is everything in a play like this and the later that you are the more grief it is going to cause.