Woman Coaching Boys V
 

Saw this in the Indy Star today.....Around Indy, it's all men coaching V....Heck, I don't even know where this city is at in Indiana...

Obviously you have men coaching girls V and you have men coaching NCAA-W...thought it was interesting.

Any of you V-Boys officials have any women coaches?

WOMAN BOYS V COACH

We had a lady coaching boys in Utah for a while at a very small (1A) school in the southern part of the state. I never worked for her, but I heard she did a very good job.

Mid Michigan.
And she took her Boys V team to the State finals 2 years ago.

http://www.weyi.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=4777

Yes. Not as unusual as many would think.

A few years ago there was a woman coaching a boys 4A team in Alaska, and they won the state championship I believe.

I think just because a few can come up with one current or past example in all their years of experience it doesn't make it less unusual. I would say percentage wise it is certainly not common.

In all the leagues I have ever reffed (or coached) I can only remember seeing one female doing a boys 13/15 age group....let alone at the BV level. I still believe it is unusual.

Probably varies by region, but I agree it's unusual. Not wrong or immoral, just unusual. ;)

I've never seen it any level beyond YMCA.

That said, BktBallRef is probably right. I'm sure there are "many" who think there are only one or two of these situations in the country.

I used to know an small college whose men's squad had a female coach.

We have a female boy's varsity coach in my area. She was the girls coach up until last year, and applied when the boys job was open to do both (since htis was before our big season switch), she was denied, sued, and won the chance to do both, or keep one and get settlement money. She chose both and passed on the money. But for 2 years now, she's done just the boys.

Immoral???:confused:

The boys sophomore coach at my local school is a woman.

Hey - that's not nice. Oh wait - you mean for real. Sorry. :o

Hey, I said it wasn't immoral.

Some of the woman coaches I've seen are more manly than my partner! ('ll print this out for him and give it to him at our next game since he doesn't log on here).

Mregor

The Constitution State
 

We had a female coaching a public high school boys varsity basketbasll team about 15 years ago in the northwestern part of Connecticut. I believe it was at Litchfield High School.

In the Catholic middle school league, that I officiate in on my free nights and weekends, we have several females coaching boys teams from fourth grade through eighth grade.

A side note, also in the Catholic Middle School league, we have a boy playing, he's a starter, with a prosthetic leg. It takes him a little bit longer to accelerate, and decelerate, than the other players, but otherwise, you wouldn't know he was playing on onewnatural leg.

I officiated a game a couple weeks ago, and the frosh. boys coach was a female... real nice lady too for a change. didnt complain like most of the female coaches i run into... this one was quiet, and when i told her what I saw, she said okay, and dropped it... I almost thought she was a zombie or somethin

A Stepford Coach maybe? :eek:

hahaha, no, she was a lil on the butch side... but cool as hell. one of those you only run into every so often

Wow!

There are several derogatory remarks toward women in this thread.

And I'll bet you all can't even see it.

Rita

I was waiting for that post to arrive. Let's see...so far "butch", "zombie" and this:

"one female doing a boys 13/15 age group".

What else did I miss?

I believe you missed "she was a little manly". :)

Yea, most of the guys on this try to be okay with this stuff, they really do. Some do a better job than others. And ya gotta admit, most of these posts are just descriptions of situations and don't contain judgment. But ultimately it's just hard for some of them to see all the details of gender discrimination.

And frankly some of these insults are against both men and women. I think the real problem is in seeing people as one against the other. Why not look for the best coach qualities that can show up in any person, and skip the gender assumptions? I mean, "She was more manly than my partner" Is that a compliment or an insult to either the coach or the partner?? The coach was strong, verbal and aggressive? Those are good or bad things for a coach or official regardless of gender. Why call them manly?

But I run the risk of being seen as a "feminazi" when I speak up. so I don't, unless it's really nasty. Gotta admit, though, it's nice to have another woman on the board regularly these days, Rita. Mostly, gender doesn't matter, much. But when it does, I do feel kinda lonely. I"ve been glad you're around.

Ft. Campbell, Ky has a lady coaching the mens team, she made the region several years ago and does a good job.

...and regarding the subject....

I signed up for a camp one summer, when I arrived I discovered that there were only two refs total, so instead of us getting trained we got paid. Two real refs and several college players. It was a boys hs team camp, all games on college sized floors. We did seven running clock games a day, for three days. took a lot of advil. There was one V team there with a woman coach. She'd been coaching girls, but the boys team was losing badly for a couple years, and the team finally requested that she take over. She took them to their regionals or state or whatever for several years, I guess. She and I were the only females on the campus that week (including the dorm we stayed in). It was very... uh, interesting...

If the qualities of a good coach are there, why should gender be issue?

Never hold it in. There's a very good reason why wimmen should always speak up.
http://www.bofunk.com/photoalbum/115.jpg

It's true, it's true..........:D

Women coaching boys teams are becoming a little more common place than we might think. Just off the top of my head, I know of one woman coaching the boys V team at a smaller Christian school in Nebraska (well, she was the coach a couple years ago-I haven't checked if she still is), and one woman coaching the football team at one of the Native American schools in Nebraska. She's no longer coaching that football team, having moved to a different school, where she's become an assistant coach to her husband on the football team, and she's also the head track coach, for both the boys and girls. This woman I'm mentioning is fairly famous around here, as she was once the University of Nebraska's head women's track coach and a former Olympian herself. Of course, she has a famous son who led Nebraska to a national championship in football.

I used to be a high school football coach in Nebraska as well, being co-head coach with a woman because she had a teacher's certificate and I didn't. At that time, they didn't have coaches' certificates or a way for non-certified people to be head coaches. The same school I coached at, had a woman be the head coach of the boys V basketball team for a couple of seasons prior to my arrival there, because the "head" coach wasn't a certified teacher/coach. After the head coach I served under decided not to coach the boys V basketball team after a couple of seasons (he went back to school to get another endorsement), we were replaced by a woman head coach and an assistant who "ran" the team, solely because she had the teacher's certificate.

Also, I know a city in the north part of Nebraska had a woman be the head coach of the boys' V soccer team a few years ago, and she led them to the state tournament. I'm sure there are more examples out there, but these were off the top of my mind.

Wow! That's a bad hair day!

Wow! An incredibly derogatory remark toward men in this post. Can you even see it?

Interesting thread.NZ has probably about 1/3 female coaches that coach boys/mens teams.Don't know that its that big a deal to comment on for us.

We have had players from the Northern hemispher who play as imports in our National League who have really struggled with female refs.One guy said"you're cute honey what do I call you"?reply?-Ma'am or ref

NZ is about 50/50 female /male refs.Although in the League only about 1/3 are female.
.The local ref association is run by the women,the appointments,the ref coaching and the NZNBL ref evaluators are all women.

I had a guy ask me, "Why do we have a female ref?" It was about a year after Violet Palmer had started in the NBA. I said, "So when you get into the NBA, you'll be used to it." He had to think about it.

PS I have also noticed you around the forum, Karin. Perhaps we've got a trend going? Someone tell Oatmealqueen we would welcome her back, too!

Scrapper and others: That bet is made because these "jokes" are made so casually many take them as par for the course. It's the common way of any bigotry. It is not uncommon for men to look at me with a puzzled expression when I don't think these "jokes" are funny. So when I see those same comments being bandied so casually, I make the assumption that many, if not most, won't even see that they might not be funny.

There was one that you all missed. And I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
The boys sophomore coach at my local school is a woman.


Hey - that's not nice. Oh wait - you mean for real. Sorry.

Last summer I was sole umpire at a senior LL baseball game. The catcher was having trouble with his mask. His coach came out to help him and when the catcher whined a little, his coach said, "Don't be a woman!" then quickly glanced at me and said, "No offense."

I looked at him sternly and said, "Offense taken. I don't appreciate the word woman being used as an insult." Later in the game, he yelled the same expression from the dugout. I whipped off my mask and glared over. He had his hand clasped over his mouth. I told him, "Ryan, you really need to get that out of your vocabulary if you use it that casually." He didn't do it again. And I don't think he will as casually in the future because I handled it well.

So, Scrapper and others, if you find it offensive that I have indicated my low expectations of your sensitivity, please forgive me. Unfortunately, I think that rainmaker and I can tell you that that same low expectation is a defense mechanism we need. I've seen black men use the same type of defense mechanism.

And therein lies the shame of it all.

Rita

Good point.

Rita

Rita
I hear what you are saying and it is no utopia down under.There was for a very long time the glass ceiling-which is why I work so much with young officials as well as the older ones.I am just trying to make things different for them-you had to be tough skinned and tenacious to come through the ranks in the 80's
The sad thing is I am still giving the skirts down knickers up talk to female officials-reminding them that anything they do in a social situation will be remembered long after their ability to officiate.Unlike their male counterparts.

We (local association) regularly run female only workshops to bring them together from all over NZ and provide topics pertinent to our experiences of reffing.

Anytime anyone is travelling (male or female)get in touch we always have games for you to work especially over your summer?

So it's offensive when somebody attempts humor that points out a stereotype of some women, but it's perfectly fine for you to insult an entire gender by seriously -- not jokingly -- stating that men are incapable of discerning humor from bigotry? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Rita. The air must be pretty thin way up on that high horse.

You know why we "missed" it, Rita? Because it's not a joke about the woman. It's a joke about language!!! The humor is in the fact that "sophomore" might refer to the coach (as in, "sophomoric") instead of to the team of sophomore-aged boys. It has nothing at all to do with the gender of the coach.

If you take a moment to try NOT to be offended, sometimes you find that there's actually no offense to be taken.

I wasn't there, but I personally don't think you handled it well. You escalated the situation when you could've made your exact same point with a sarcastic comment like, "Yeah, you wouldn't want that!"

I probably will. But I have to tell you that your post touched a real nerve. Not because you're so quick to point out possibly offensive comments by other; but by your callous willingness to engage in exactly the behavior that you're so offended by in others.

Scrappy, some people aren't happy unless they aren't happy.

Scrappy, I took that joke as offensive, too, and not as humor. Your explanation (below) makes no sense to me. I don't think that BITS statement was the joke, he was just stating a fact. There's a sophomore boys team, and the coach is female. Mark's joke was weird, and I assumed he was trying to be double sarcastic or something, but it definitely wasn't funny on the face of it. At least not to me. I know Mark, and know he's not bigoted, but I also see how anyone who doesn't know Mark could assume he's a real a$$ from this statement. I didn't respond because I have a really nasty case of the flu and didn't see Mark's "joke" until there had been enough time pass that I didn't think it would be helpful to say anything. But it is definitely NOT a benign "joke".

Rita is, I think, expressing surprise that no males spoke against that comment, and from this fact is inferring that men, as a group, didn't see the offense. Truth is, I think you're right that most men on this board aren't bigoted at all, or aren't very bigoted. Although I've done my share of bristling at what I think is offensive, overall, it's a pretty safe place, especially compared to the larger officiating world.

But in this world, there's NOWHERE that women aren't sometimes put down or assumed to be less than men, at least upon occasion. It's just the way life is. As Rita says, it's also true of racial minorities. I know that enlightened men like you (no sarcasm intended, I know you're one of the good ones) have trouble believing that, but it's just plain true.

Sorry, Scrappy, I don't follow. How is applying the term sophomoric to a woman not an insult?

This is true as a generalization. I'm not sure it applies here. Rita doesn't know Mark and I think her read of his statement being offensive is very reasonable.

The real problem is that when a woman, a racial minority, a guy, anyone who is systematically put down or held down has to stop and analyze every situation, every statement, every job interview, every traffic stop, every characterization, every look, every joke, every double meaning, every assignment, every insult, every..... well, it's just exhausting. It's just easier to live by that tried and true saying, "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you."

I disagree. What she said didn't escalate. She got her point across, and the guy changed his behavior. In situations like this, humor is a mixed message. It says to everyone who hears the exchange that joking is a good way to avoid being responsible for the damage that's being done. Rita told the coach and the kid in a clear but non-violent way that his thinking was completely unacceptable and that it needed to change. The meta-message is that although the coach is just assuming that there's something wrong with being a woman, actually there isn't and the coach should quit teaching his kids that. Women everywhere would be thrilled to see how Rita did this in a very appropriate way, imo.

What else has been said on this board that would make her think any male DIDN'T think this joke was funny, or that any male isn't amused by Mark's joke? She's might be guilty of over-generalizing but she's certainly NOT guilty of callously being hypocritical. No men saw (or no men pointed out) the offense that might be attached to Marks "joke", and Rita is offended by that.

And I don't buy your explanation that the men on this site see it as a language joke. I doubt half of them did. Most readers of this site simply don't think in those terms. That's not a gender-based slam. It's just a comment on the general type of person who's here. SOme are very interested in language and can do some pretty sophisticated wordplay. Most aren't. Not a reflection on intelligence or gender. Just an observation of the nature subject matter and general direction of this site.

Several Brooklyn cheers for you, my good man.

So........ to sum up.......you're happy but tired.;)

How do you know that I'm a man?:confused:

Seriously........

What inferences did you use to come to that particular conclusion?

Good point. Hmmm... Dont know where you live, no matter how hard we've all tried to figure it out, no clue how old you are other than the rather vague appelation "Jurassic", never any mention of kids, spouses... oh, wait, not true. I think there's a post back there somewhere about a wife. (Still, I know lesbians that refer to their partners as wives...)

Yup, don't know much about you personally...

hhhmmmmm.......

So just your general crusty nature and grouchy attitude isn't enough to "assume"? And now I suppose you're gonna get all reticent and cagey and just try to act neutral for a while just to confuse everyone? Cute... very cute...

Think about it. Wasn't it ....gasp....<b>sexist</b> on your part to assume that I'm a male just because I get a tad cranky every now and then?

Actually, most people assume that when someone gets "cranky" every now and then, they're female. Looks like the sexist thing is about a wash on that subject.

:D

And a lot of other subjects too imo.........

I usually assume they don't get enough sleep, don't eat breakfast regularly, or haven't had sex in a while.

Or all of the above?:D

...yup, I know that's your opinion. And you know mine. Just because you're basically a nice guy with the best intentions, doesn't mean everyone is. And since you are basically a nice guy, you seem to assume that those of us who are a little touchy are the ones with the problems. That our offendednesses are inappropriate. It's easy to say, "Life isn't long enough to spend time worrying about them." It's really, really hard to do it. Just because we seem to be paranoid, and just because you're not out to get us, doesn't mean that THEY're not.

I sleep well and I always eat a good breakfast.

Just saying........

I'm going to comment on this and then I'm going to try to disengage from this thread because these race/gender discussions never end well. I don't want to contribute to a perceived or real flame war. So here goes.

The fact that anyone could be offended at Bits's comment is mind-boggling to me. Let's suppose that it was not intended to be humorous. Here's the post in a nutshell:

1. A bunch of 15-year-old boys are being coached by a woman.
2. That's not nice.
3. Oops, I didn't realize #1 was a serious statement.

First of all, assuming that it's NOT meant to be humorous, it doesn't make any sense at all. It's not insulting, it's not derogatory. It's non-sensical. What is the purpose of "that's not nice"? Even if you thought it was inappropriate for a woman to coach high school boys, would anyone say that it wasn't "nice"? :confused: Even if you would say it's not "nice", how is that offensive?!?!?!

Second, assuming it's not meant to be humorous, the comments are apparently incredibly offensive to women. Are we to conclude that Bits is a misogynist? I really, really hope not.

The only way the post makes any sense is for there to be some sort of wordplay. The thing that's "not nice" is calling someone a "sophomore coach"; but as I pointed out in my last post, that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the gender of the coach.

Anyone offended by Bits's sophomoric humor is simply trying way too hard to be offended. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm blasting you, personally, it's not intended that way. But the statement is true.

And finally, even assuming that Bits hates all women, it is still wildly ironic that Rita chose to berate the entire male gender while being offended that Bits was berating the entire female gender. That's what really pissed me off about her post.

BITS' comments ended here. I know very well that BITS isn't "part of the problem". And I don't think that Rita was offended by BITS' comment.

Mark's "joke" was, as you point out, non-sensical, but I understand how it could be perceived as offensive to women. I still don't get the joke, but I get how it might be offensive.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and not checking things out.

Rita wasn't generalizing about men. She was simply surprised that no forum people thought Mark's joke was sexist. She also commented on some other comments that were sort of throw-offs in this thread about women. Ya gotta admit, there is a little bit of sexism in there.

Scrappy, you are (like JR) a nice guy, but you don't see how tough it can get for the non-majority when dealing with the not-nice-folks. It's easy to get paranoid, and it's difficult to be able to pick out the good guys from the bad, sometimes. Rita just hasn't been around here long enough to know which are whom.

And I still don't get the sophomore/woman/language thing. Perhaps you could explain it?

I'm still trying to figure out why Rita assumed that BITS or some of the other posters actually are males. I can't find anything in their posts that positively identify them as such. I find that incredibly sexist.:D

Yup, it's been a hoot but this one really should die.

So far, it doesn't look or feel like a flame war to me. And I think this kind of discussion can be very useful and could even end well, if we can keep it to a discussion, and not let ourselves get out on a limb.

But you still shouldn't lump the good guys in with the bad guys until you do pick out which is which though.

That's one of the points that Scrappy was trying to get across, methinks.

You're awfully happy this morning. Maybe a little more than just eating and sleeping....

Just saying...

So much for leaving the thread. . .

That is completely and utterly false. You can see how Mark's joke was offensive (I'm sorry for thinking it was Bits's joke) but you can't see that Rita insulted every man on this forum?!?!?! She wasn't surprised at all. She was BETTING on the fact that we stupid insensitive walking penises couldn't understand why some joke was so obviously offensive to women everywhere!!!

There is CLEARLY no offense intended in Mark's joke and there is CLEARLY offensive condescension in Rita's post; yet she gets to make her comments without expecting to get called on it.

The difference is that I don't care if she thinks I (or all men) am a walking brainless penis. The thing that bothers me is the fact that she uses the very technique that she is claiming to be offended by.

Rita said "you all" and "readers," she never said men or penises.

There isn't CLEARLY no offense intended in Mark's joke. It's just not that clear, Scrappy. I know Mark pretty well, and I dont' feel the joke is clear at all. So how could it possibly be clear to Rita?

Rita was very blunt about her opinion, but I dont' think she's lumping all men together. She might very well have been surprised that it didn't offend me, too. COnsidering that I'm on this board every day and she had to know that I saw it. Maybe that surprise and accusation was against me too?

HEY, back off! You're messing up my 15 minutes of fame. :p

For the record, I am quite the misogynist. In fact, my wife thinks I give fantastic misogges. It's part of why I'm not cranky despite the lack of sleep and having missed breakfast. I'm just saying...

Hmmm, this seems like a really good time for a "patient whistle." You don't understand the statement, but you "get" how you could take offense at it? Wouldn't going off in this situation be arguing from ignorance? It is true that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean "they" are not out to get you, but realizing that you are paranoid should lead you to be more careful about the conclusions you come to, lest you allow your paranoia to lead you to false conclusions.

Mark makes a hundred off-hand, silly, out there, or otherwise off the wall comments every week. He, and his comments, are part of the furniture around here. To comment on them all, would just encourage him ;). Besides, let me tell you a little secret...sometimes we of the oppressive gender don't always understand them either. And we have a genetic flaw that prevents us asking for an explanation.

You've been here a very long time. Stay here long enough and you'll be exposed to sexism, stoopid monkey-ism, old school-ism, fan boy-ism, and lots of other -isms. We're referees, which means we're very self-assured and don't really give a hoot what the rest of the world thinks. And yet despite those prevalent tendencies, the amount of genuine sexism here is pretty minimal. In other words, this whole place is largely overrun with "nice guys".

Rita chose a silly place to pick a fight over this. Participation here is voluntary, nobody here controls or affects her assignments or advancement in any way. She has nothing at stake here other than a place in this community. And as far as I recall, she has always been well received. Even the "furor" over her accusations has been pretty muted, more reasoned than emotional, and mostly directed at the validity of her accusation. If we were really a bunch of knuckle-dragging, poorly disguised misogynists there would have been an immediate avalanche of ad hominem (or ad feminam?) headed her direction. But there wasn't; we're really not the enemy. So why start a shooting war over sexism here?

Why are you asking Scrappy? Like you, he can only infer Mark's meaning. It was Mark's post. Go ask him what he actually implied.

Even if the joke is unclear, the "offensive" part is non-existent. As I tried to point out above, if it's not a joke, it makes no sense at all. It's not insulting, derogatory or offensive or ANYTHING. If you don't think it's funny, then it's NOTHING -- and CLEARLY not offensive.

You are bending over backwards in order NOT to be offended by Rita's comment. Do you honestly believe, even for one second, that Rita's "you all" comment is directed at you? Really? She is saying that there are derogatory comments about women and the men can't even see them. We're just too emotionally blunted and conditioned not to value women to be able to discern good-natured and well-intentioned needling from the obvious misogyny contained in those posts.

You're working really hard at not being offended by Rita's comments. That's fine. Once again, my problem is not that she thinks we're too stupid to see the offensiveness of Mark's comments. My problem is the fact that she insults an entire gender while being offended at someone insulting an entire gender. There's a word for that, which I have very carefully avoided so that I don't inflame the thread even more.

BITS, I know that Mark is almost always off-the-wall. That's why I didn't respond to what he said, even though at first glance it bugged me. I figured that although it looked obnoxious, I might be wrong, and there was no point in fighting about it. Rita obviously doesn't know Mark as well as I do, and doesn't have the perspective I do. She couldn't read the "wheels within wheels" type humor any better than I could, but she doesn't know him well enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.

All that to say, yea, I do see how it could look sexist even though I'm not sure I understand what he was trying to say.

Yup there's a lot of sexism out in the world, but while the sexism on this board is quite a bit less, as a rule, it's not "minimal". I got tired of arguing about it a couple of years ago. It's like trying to teach a... nope, that's not a good way to say it. It's just pointless to argue, because the ones who already get it are the only ones who get it. Rita just isn't there yet.

And scrappy, yea, I do think she might have been aiming at me. Why would she say "you-all" if she didn't mean to include Karin and me? Rita's not thin-skinned as a rule, it doesn't appear to me, so I'm guessing she wouldn't have hesitated to offend all "men" if that's what she'd meant.

All that being said, I gotta admit, this isn't the turn I expected this thread to take. It started off so well!

The boys sophomore coach at my local school is a woman.


Hey - that's not nice. Oh wait - you mean for real. Sorry.

I've read the replies since my response. Interesting reading.

First, there is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. That's all I'm trying to do.

The comment above, as read by me, has Mark facetiously saying that BITS is calling the male sophmore coach a woman. Young men and boys are the ones I have heard using the word "woman" as an insult. Maybe most of you, including Karin and rainmaker haven't heard it used. As a teacher of middle school and high school, I may have had more opportunity to hear it used as an insult than you all have. OR it may be an insult more common to this region. I don't know. But now you know it's out there. How you use that knowledge determines whether or not you are stupid. Not your sex.

I am sure that Mark meant it as a joke. I didn't think it was funny. There was a time I thought Polish jokes were funny. I'm sure that you all thought so also. We learned. That's all I ask now.

I never said anyone was stupid. Scrapper inferred that. In other words, he was being as overly sensitive as he accused me of being.

I don't expect to convince Scrapper or anyone else. I thought rainmaker made my point very well in her responses.

Rita

Fixed to fall in line with <b>your</b> opinion of the way things ought to be?

Rita, thanks for responding. I'm glad I spoke well for you, but I'm glad you're now speaking for yourself. In looking over BITS' post, and then Mark's, I think what happened was that BITS was simply stating a fact.

Then Mark was being facetious, as you say, in saying that "it wasn't nice" for BITS to call the coach a woman as if it were an insult. Then he facetiously apologized for thinking BITS was joking: "Oh, wait, you mean for real." In other words, Mark was being silly and then being silly about being silly. Yea, that's Mark.

Because of your experience in hearing men and boys use the word as an insult, Rita, you ARE more sensitive, and rightly so, I think. But I don't think that's what Mark meant, actually, although I'm with you in not fully getting his intent the first 27 times I read that post. I can tell you for sure, though, that Mark isn't the type that would throw around that kind of insult, not even in jest. Neither are BITS or Scrapper. Neither are most of these guys. It's just hard to read on the board, that's all.

Of course. :D

I grew up in an area where there were many ethnicities. The only way we can know if we are offending is to know. That means the offended party has to say something.

You wouldn't be looking for ways to be offended, would you?:p

Rita

I'm sure you are correct.

Thanks.

Rita

I too grew up in an area where there were many ethnicities. A veritable Rainbow Coalition, I guess you could say. We said a lot of very offensive things to each other back then, but the funny thing was that we were never really offended. It was just a different world. Mark Padgett will understand what I'm talking about.

Offended? Naw, I'm not one of those people who aren't happy unless they aren't happy. :) Life <b>is</b> just too damn short to worry about what the azzholes of the world are doing. And I learned a long time ago that I ain't gonna change anybody from being an azzhole either.

<i>Illegitimus Non Carborundum</i>, Rita.

A flair for the obvious. Why would you even mention that it wasn't?;)

Ok, you know what? I did not read it that way at all. And I'm man -- human (sorry!) -- enough to admit that I was wrong. So let's break it down again and see the oh, so offensive part:

1) Bits: The sophomore boys coach is a woman.
2) Mark: Hey, are you calling the male coach a woman? That's not very nice!
3) Mark: Oh, never mind. You were serious, she actually is a woman.

I still contend that you have to bend over backwards to be offended by the fact that Mark is saying people might interpret #1 in a negative way that wouldn't be nice, especially since you're saying the exact same thing. Aren't you? I just cannot believe that anyone can be offended by such nonsense.

That's sweet of you. It's so non-offensive of you to assume that we "all" need the lesson. That would be like me explaining to you that 2 + 2 = 4 because I assume that "all" women have trouble with math. Gee, that wouldn't be insulting at all, would it?

Again, and for the last time, since I'm sure plenty of people are sick of this thread, I don't mind that you're offended. That's your right. What I mind is that you insult the entire male gender -- by assuming that we're all ignorant of how to spot misogyny -- while being upset that Mark insulted the entire female gender. And the amazing thing is that you really don't even see it.

Wimmen are like that, Scrappy. It's in their genes...you know, like shopping and crying.

I am not a nice guy, in fact I take pride in being a prick. From where I sit in the cheap seats with the other pricks all of you are just full of sh1t. It was a stupid joke meant to imply the male coach is a woman. Is it a common insult for one man to say another man acts like a woman? To practically every man in practically every corner of the world, yes (pls don't bring up gay men as an exception, most gay men are not effeminate and those that are not don't take too kindly to being called a woman). Is it OK for a woman to take offense at this type of insult? Well, if someone is looking to be offended then they'll find it. So here's the real question: is it stupid to get into a pissing contest about this in light of the fact that some of the contestants will need to be seated during the festivities?

Yes it is. It's very stupid.

So, you're calling me stupid? I'm not even the one that was pissing. Sheez, your aim is really going downhill...

Not unless you've suddenly become an "it." Or a joke.

As I said, if you're looking to be offended you'll find it. But just to be sure I went back to see if I actually called YOU stupid.

Turns out I didn't. What I said was you are full of sh1t.

Thank you.

or

Shut up.

Whichever.

yes I have had the attempted insult of being called a woman in a game.Senior high school boys-I made a call on their star player and the coach yells across the court"don't worry Mark,its only a woman's call"I immediatly gave the T saying "and I guess that one is too coach."I gave the T because he was heard by the crowd and it was personal in that he was using the word as a putdown.We are instructed to respond to anything personal in this way.

As a referee I find players/coaches etc will attempt to get into my head as a "gray shirt"then they will focus on me being a female.
If I don't like the heat I can retire or I can just ignore their ignorance.What they don't seem to realise is that calling me a woman is not an insult.

NZ males tend to use the putdown of "girl"to their players or friends"what do you mean you can't run ?you are such a girl"have another drink what are you a girl?"

In every walk of life we will face sexist pigs-thankfully that generation is lessening(natural attrition)and it is easier for the next lot coming through.Yes, I came through the 70's but realistically we can't keep reacting to every perceived small insult from our collegues or else we perpetuate the stereotypes.
I am not suggesting completing ignoring and will always jump on anything for a younger female especially if I think it is an older male attempting to be funny but for myself?I can't change years of ingrained beleifs so prefer to treat with disdain.

"Can't we all just get along"
 

I am a fan of the FX Network televison show "Rescue Me", with Denis Leary. I am not a firefighter, nor an I a New Yorker, yet I noticed that in the show, this diverse group of firefighters in the station say some very politically incorrect things to each other, yet the bond of their very dangerous job seems to counteract the "offensiveness" of the comments.

I'm not pleased with the offensive comments, but, I'm very pleased with their laizzez faire attitude toward these comments. As Rodney King, and I have mixed feelings about him, once said, "Can't we all just get along".

And they'll be happy when they find it too.:D

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I seen you 'round for a long long time

War

Apologies?
 

I was starting to feel bad about what I started. Especially on how I've pissed off Scrapper by insulting the entire male population.

Then I remembered several of the things I read in the replies:

Some people work hard to be offended and look for it.

Some people are only happy when they aren't happy.

So I realized it really isn't any of it my fault.

Rita

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa.....

ROFLMAO!! Excellent response, Juulie...

OTOH, I gotta agree with Dan about the whole "finding ways to be offended" bit (and the part about him being a prick)...and I gotta say that it takes a lot, and I mean a LOT, to get Scrappy-Doo all fired up!! :p

I don't know. He gets a little owly when the Mystery Machine doesn't start.

Hard to believe, but I just read this thread for the first time. Sometimes it helps to state the obvious. Men, for the most part, take pride in trying to be as "manly" as possible. Men, also for the most part, spend a lot of time insulting other men. It is fair to say that most men are very interested in women. Therefore, most men have their own image of the ideal woman. This ideal woman would most often tend to be quite feminine, or, the opposite of a man, if you will. Therefore, what better way to insult another man than by calling him a woman. (the opposite of a man) These same men might see a woman that they perceive, rightfully or otherwise, to be not so feminine. One of the adjectives used to describe this woman is often manly. Is this intended to be derogatory to the woman? Probably so. Is this intended to be derogatory to men? I would say definitely not.

Try this one. One of the characteristics looked upon favorably by most men is to be tall. When one who is not so tall is referred to as "a little shrimp," is this offensive to shrimp?

Finally we agree. It's not your fault; it's just the way that you are and you can't do anything about it.

Obladi, oblidah, life goes on, eh?

Hey, at least, you're happy though. :)

My colleagues at "The Equal Rights for Shrimp Coalition" will hear of this! *shakes fist*

This thread reminds me of a joke.

Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A: That's not funny.

OK, now you're getting downright nasty! No reason, no reason at all, to take a perfectly good thread dealing with the dangers of the inherent sexist attitudes prevalent in today's society and turn that thread into a joke about Scrapper. That's just not right!:p

Yep, this one went squirrelly in a hurry. But it's okay, Scrappy's got the ba...hmmm, well, you get the picture. :D

Q: Do you know why it takes two women with PMS to change a lightbulb?
A: IT Just DOES!!

Proper Uniform ???
 

I'm sure that many of us have preconceived notions about what some frequent posters on the Forum look like. After months of internet background checks, I was finally able to find a photo of Jurassic Referee. Please note the "old fashioned" collared shirt. I guess that Jurassic also wears the shirt to work at Footlocker.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/saintseminole/91305509

Also, Jurassic is a lot better looking than my preconceived notion. It all goes to show, we shouldn't prejudge people.

What's the ideal woman? Here's a story:

Every year during football season, a local grocery chain lets it's employees wear football jerseys on weekends. Last year I was in line at this store. Right in front of me were two guys in their 20s who were buying only beer and chips. The cashier was a young woman who had a little sign on her name badge that said she had laryngitis and could not speak.

One of the guys said to her, "Oh, you can't speak, huh?" She shook her head "no". He then pointed to the beer and asked her if she liked beer. She shook her head "yes". He then pointed at her football jersey and said, "Wait a minute. You like football, you like beer, you're cute, you have a job and you can't speak. You're the perfect woman! Will you marry me?"

Even she had to laugh. I don't know if they ever got married, though.

1) I'm not a ref - just a fan who reads the forum because it is instructive and I've a LOT to learn about the game I have come to love.

2) My perception is that there are many posters here who have little or no respect for females playing BB. I would bet that if you did a forum search on "girls" you would find that a significant percent of the time it involved a put down type comment. At least that has been my reaction in reading this forum over the years.

3) I worked in corporate America for long enough to get a pension and lived through the bra burning era and before I retired, the President of my division was a woman. She is now the COO of a multinational corporation. My experience is that women make many of the dumb mistakes males make :)

In my experience, at some level, many men resent having to share the jobs which used to be all men with females. This seems to have decreased significantly as the guys who grew up seeing women in all sorts of job get to be more numerous. However, the tradition of men in an all male environment tending to be rather free with less than flattering comments about women continues and this forum is often treated as a "male club".

There is a time to let it go and get on with important stuff and there is a time to say ENOUGH! The he said/she said quibbling about how language was used is meaningless. The FACT is that this discussion started because a simple statement about a woman coaching a boy's team resulted in some nasty asides about women. The women here called the posters on it. Some may not understand why the women reacted and try to portray it as the women's problem. That tactic is as old as the hills and as discredited.

Cool. Now you tell me how that you <b>definitively</b> know that the posters making these <b>supposed</b> put-downs are actually <b>males</b>?:confused:

Start with me. How do you that I'm really a male? Continue with Scrappy. How do you know that Scrappy is a male also? Did you ever think that it's possible that Scrappy might be a female that thinks that misandry is as bad as misogny(unlike Rita who seems to think that misandry is just fine).

And why is it bad for the males to generally "put down" women, but it's fine for women to generally put down men? Example--->Rita?

My perception is that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, but that ain't gonna stop you from preaching. Carry on.

Gator, I dont entirely agree with Jurassic but I do think you've overstated the situation. There's no question that there is some sexism that shows up on this board from time to time, and there's definitely some systemic sexism in our society that's reflected here, but I personally know both Scrappy and Mark Padgett, and I'm becoming more acquainted with Rita recently and I'm pretty sure the whole flap in this thread is a result of some misunderstandings about language (which btw isn't even remotely meaningless).

What Rita said about everyone in our society needing to be confronted about our prejudices and bigotries (we've all got 'em) is true, but sometimes an individual isn't in a position to hear it, or hears a message that was intended for someone else. Especially on an internet venue, it's easy for things to sound more negative than they should. Scrappy, is a person who works hard to be kind and polite (non-offensive) to everyone and felt personally slammed by Rita's criticsm against people who didn't see Padgett's "joke" as offensive. Neither Rita nor Scrappy is backing down from their position about Padgett's joke.

It's really a language issue 100%. It's not going to be resolved in this thread, but my hope is that over time we here on this board will have gotten a little bit of something from this, and go forward with a way to get along better.

Although I know that goes totally against the self-styled pricks who try as hard as possible to be rude and obnoxious universally. At least they're non-discriminating in their offense.

Thanks, Juulie. You know me and you know I don't have a prejudiced bone in my body, especially when it comes to my opinions about women. My "joke" was a parody on how men react to comments about having their masculinity threatened when a remark is made about how they are acting like a woman.

Gee - I guess I just confessed I actually don't resent the French. Maybe I'd better rephrase my previous remarks. :eek:

Mark -- I won't swear to your not having a prejudiced bone in your body toward women, but I WILL swear to your having fewer prejudiced bones toward women than almost anyone I know (Scrappy probably has as few as you).

It's always interesting to me to see how each person handles our own prejudices and those of others, those toward us and those toward others. It's a huge subject, and troublesome. But if we didn't have this to be upset about, what would we?

1) Agreed. And sometimes people that are confronted with their prejudices and bigotries absolutely refuse to accept that they have any. That would be Rita in the opinion of some, including Scrappy. Bigotry and prejudice go both ways. Rita made a derogatory remark directed at <b>ALL</b> men. Pot--->kettle--->black.

2) And that's where you're wrong imo. The self-styled rude, obnoxious pricks of the world(aka Dan and probably me also) just might be right the odd time in their take on certain things. Don't confuse the message with the way that the message is being delivered.

JMVHO....:)

1) reference, please?

2) I didn't say they were always wrong. I just said that I hope we can "all get along" but I"m not sure everyone really wants to.

3) Sometimes it's pretty hard to divine the message when the delivery is pure invective.

1) Post #18 of this thread- by Rita. That's what brought Scrappy into a state of such high dudgeon. Post #59 where she says that she's only trying to fix ignorance is kind of a hoot too imo.

2) And from some of the other comments in this thread, I was kinda having a few doubts about others wanting to get along too. Btw, disagreeing with someone doesn't mean that they're not getting along.

3) Nope, there really was a message in Dan's post. I got it too. The fact that this thread is still going is a monument to his message.

Which is more or less how this got started.

Nope. It's a monument to the real-lives of the mods.

Gee, Juulie. I'm kind of disappointed at your "lukewarm" endorsement. But I guess that's what I should expect from a girl. :p