Delay to the nth degree
 

Usual Saturday morning kids rec league schedule. First game (at 8:15, no less) of four was 7th grade boys. Team A got a delay warning for interfering with the ball after it went through the basket about 2 minutes into the game. A minute later, they got their second call for a boundary violation. This was right after my partner reminded them not to reach over the line. All in all, they got nine, count 'em nine, delay warnings that resulted in eight technicals. Five warnings were for interfering with the ball after a made basket, four were for boundary violations. The weird thing was that they never reached over the boundary and slapped the ball.

After one of the calls in the 3rd quarter, their assistant coach yelled at my partner that we were "being ridiculous". Mind you, not that their situation was ridiculous, but that we were. My partner teed him up, so we had four free throws that time. My partner wasn't overreacting - this league has a zero tolerance policy for coaches yelling at officials.

Oh yeah - they lost by 7. Gee, I wonder what cost them the game? :confused:

IMO the referees did. Why, after the first technical (2 delay violations), didn't you use some game management and pull the coaches together and give them a few seconds to instruct their kids? These were 7th grade rec kids that MAYBE practice one a week and play 12 games a year (if they are like rec kids in my area).

Are you nuts? :mad: We warned them over and over. The coaches yelled at them before every OOB play not to reach over. They yelled at them in their huddles numerous times not to touch the ball after it went through the net. These kids practice twice a week and this league starts at 3rd grade. Most of these kids are in their 5th year of playing. Their behavior in this game is just something I can't explain. This is the 15th year I've worked this league and I've never seen anything like it before. And, if it was our "fault", why didn't the other team have even a single warning the entire game?

Ya' know, sometimes kids just don't listen and/or learn. That doesn't mean it's the fault of the officials and I resent your implication that we were negligent.

Well, even given what you said, I would NEVER call 9 delays in a 7th grade rec game when no advantage was gained. I think you were negligent in game management techniques, not rules enforcement. For the reach through I would back the defender up a couple feet and educate the inbounder that he can go back as far as he wanted. For slight reach throughs - I wouldn't even worry. For the touching the ball after the basket I would simply start the 5 second count after the team secured the ball unless you are telling me they swatted it far away. If they kept swatting it far away and completely went over the line on reach throughs to the point of obstructing the inbounder's view, etc., then you just have a team full of rejects. But if other refs don;t have this problem with them then I would look in the mirror.

Wow... :eek:

JMO=Old School=Ralph=KSref=[whatever the most recent one is]

So your answer, as an official, is to instruct the OTHER team how to work around the violations instead of penalizing the offenders? Then maybe you should coach instead of officiate.

Isn't ralph the guy you call after your 14th beer? rrrrrrrrraaaaaaaallllph!!

Kinda fits here.

He was a college acquaintance, but not necessarily a friend.

Who the hell are you to tell me to "look in the mirror"? I've worked more kid's rec games than probably anyone else on this forum. I've served on the Board of this league for almost 15 years. Do you think I would call "petty" violations?

I look in the mirror every day. What I see is a guy who pulled this organization out of the red during my first year as Board president and who got his local newspaper to appeal to the community to get more volunteers when we didn't have enough to continue. I have never been anything but helpful and instructive to these kids. My philosophy in a league like this is to make the call, tell the kid what he/she did wrong, and keep calling it until they correct their wrong behavior. That's how they learn and that position is an official Board policy.

Gee - I guess you can sum it up by saying I truly believe in teaching kids to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions and not blame others. What a concept.

In what universe is this a good idea???:D :D

Don't hold back Mark, tell us how you really feel! :D :D :D

Seriously, I agree with you 100%.

And Ralph, I've seen Mark work, and he does an outstanding job of game management, which isn't easy with the mix of kids & coaches you get at this level. This is the age where they need to learn these things if they want a chance at playing at the high school level, and experience is often the best teacher.

The delays were called because they were giving that team an advantage. That advantage was delaying the game.

You really should look in the mirror. You're blaming an official for poor <b>coaching</b>.

Btw, are you an official?

Thanks for all the support, guys. If I have a sore spot, it's being attacked on my attitude toward my local kids rec league, since I have been involved with it for so long.

Actually, I have another sore spot, but no matter how much I beg her, Juulie won't rub it for me. :(

Oh, and Mark, when one team is fouling a lot, you should not call so many fouls. Just tell the team that is getting fouled to shoot long range jumpers before the defense can get close enough to foul. Calling too many fouls is just how horrible officials cause kids to lose games. I am so disappointed in you.

Yeah, sorry. I guess the cat's out of the bag. I really do care who wins these games and I call the game to cover the spread. Don't tell those third grade coaches, OK?

Yes, to some degree (as my examples cite) when we are officiating a RECREATIONAL 7th GRADE league. This was not a COMPETITIVE league. RECREATIONAL leagues are educational by nature. If all parties involved (coaches and officials) are out there for the kids education of the sport, then 9 technicals would not be called. Period.

I wonder why the OP even posted this. He indicated that the coach thought he was "being ridiculous" and was internalizing that the coach probably blamed him for losing the game. Why would he do that if he was TOTALLY sure about his actions. Sounds like he wanted validation from members of this board.

Don't post something if you can't take opposing viewpoints. :(

I guess now he would go on to say that he would never call traveling in a Jr. High Game and he would never call fouls in a Highschool Game. I guess this is how we all need to start calling if we want to make it to the play off's like this guy did.

I get it. Unsporting actions are just fine in rec leagues. We're just supposed to ignore them.

Great philosophy. :rolleyes:

Again, are you an official?

Since when are coaches and officials, especially in an 11 year old rec league, adversaries? Since when are they not trying to accomplish the same goal?

Raise your hand if you have ever personally witnessed 9 INDIVIDUAL / SEPARATE Technical fouls in one game AT ANY LEVEL (fights excluded). Case closed.

I guess the OP made his point - he is the ultimate authority. And ruined the tempo of the game in the process. When all he had to do is back the kids up 2 feet. Even HS rules dictate if the OOB area is limited there is a 3-foot line that the defense can't cross marked on the court. Why couldn't he have just said "Move back a little". This would have kept the game flowing and at a time out could have instructed coaches how to instruct their players relative to the rules. he would have shown the coaches he is on the same side as them - trying to do what is best for the kids. Instead, he chose to be robocop.

I don't call much traveling in a 3rd grade game, do you? Or do you call it with the same intensity and detail as a V game? Do you call technicals for this delay in a 3rd grade game? Nope. Judgment.

No, we are supposed to use judgment. Yes, it IS a great philosophy. Maybe you should try it sometime if you believe NINE separate techicals in a 11 year old game is ever warranted.

I seriously doubt an 11 year old had evil unsporting intentions. Give us a break. Preventive officiating - maybe you heard of it? A simple "move back" would have kept the game going, and everyone would have enjoyed their hour - instead of robocop commadeering the game.

I wonder if this team has ever received THREE technicals in one game from any other pair of officials, much less NINE? That should also tell you something about this crew.

This was their second game together in history as a team. This league has a draft every year so the teams do not stay the same year after year. I did check with the guys who did their first game the week before and they said they issued five technicals for the same reason.

Also, have you noticed the opinions on this board are going about a bazillion to one against your ridiculous position? I'll say it once again, educating kids as to what rules are is best accomplished if you invoke the rule and then explain it, not ignoring the rule. Try to get that through your obviously too thick skull.

Also, if the league wasn't happy with the way I officiate, they have a strange way of showing it by continually asking me to be the supervisor of officials year after year.

What group of officials do you supervise? :confused:

Two weeks ago, my partner and I called 4 delay violations (3 Techs) in a 6th grade recreational league. Basketball, like life, has rules. Play fair.

If I have warned them about it previously, then yes, I would. They wont ever learn if you dont call it. Same as traveling in 3rd grade, if you let them get away with it there, then they bring it on with them to Jr. High and Highschool and could cause the team the game.

I believe that we all agree that the lower level games is a time for learning. If you dont make the call, then they will never learn.

HE ruined the tempo of the game?

I agree that it's nice if a game has "tempo." But it's not up to us whether it does.

And just so we're all clear that this Ralph guy has absolutely no clue - 7th graders are not 11 years old. Stick around long enough Ralph and you will realize that quite a few of us "long-timers" on this board post things just to vent and we don't need or want any validation from anyone in those threads.

Most of them in this league are 13. There's a few who are 12 and a couple who are 14. Not that it is a big deal, but when I went into 7th grade back in the Stone Age, I was 10 - and this was in a pretty rough jr. hi on the south side of Chicago. I grew up really fast.

Again, Ralph, are you an official?

You have made some posts here in your short posting history that have been absolutely ludicrous from an officiating standpoint. That's why I'm wondering if you've ever had a whistle in your mouth.

Padgett's been around here for 8 years. We enjoy his stories.

Why would you join last month and already act like you are acting?

A good friend of mine has a saying Ralph should consider:

When it's you against the world, back the world.

Thanks, Rich. Glad my stories are at least of interest. BTW - despite what "Ralph" surmises, I am always "totally sure of my actions".

Well, at least the ones that happen on the court. ;)

Delay Of Game
 

A few weeks ago, in a sixth, and seventh, grade Catholic school game, I made a crossing the boundary line delay of game call with seconds left in a tied game. It was a reaction call, very obvious, and, at the time, I didn't think twice about the call, until I realized that this was the second delay call of the game, against the same team, and that the technical foul shots, one was eventually made, would give the one point victory to the other team. Nobody, players, coaches, or fans, complained about the call. I went from a reaction call, to feeling a little too "officious", until my partner pointed out to me that it was the same player who got the first, and second, crossing the boundary line delay of game call. I'm still not sure that I feel 100% "great" about the second call, but I don't feel too badly about it either. Players eventually have to learn the rules, and by making calls like this, they will certainly learn the rules and play the game as intended.

Actually you are the one who needs to use better management skills.
 

Well, Ralph, you have once again opened your mouth without having a clue to whom you are speaking. Your lack of respect for the knowledge and abilities of others is astonishing. :(

==============================
Directed at Padgett, who is the supervisor of officials for this rec league and has likely officiated more games at this level than anyone else on the forum (perhaps even the west coast). Now who has a better idea of when multiple technical fouls are appropriate in this rec league?

Directed at Brandan89, who really does work at the HS level and has for three years now.
=========================

Now I strongly suggest that you start having some consideration for the source before you start blasting away. It just may turn out that the original source knows more about the situation than you do.


JR, of course he claims to be a very experienced and successful official.

And since he is the only official in the history of the game who has issued NINE separate technicals in one game, I guess it's HIM against the world.

I recognize that every situation is unique and consider the source. You are the one floating on an island here and if we're lucky, it'll sink.

Isn't it about time for you to post your resume again?

Let go of the past and move on, my son. We are now talking about someone who doesn't have the common sense to back a kid (or kids) up two feet to prevent him from having to make a point every throw-in. You really have to WANT to call technicals to let this easy to fix violation (in a REC league mind you) happen over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

By the way, I didn't read where anyone has called or even witnessed NINE technicals in one game in their life. That says it all.

Isn't it about time you at least admit that NINE technicals in one game is a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence? I wonder if the game was REALLY that far out on the fringes. Hmmmmm. Or maybe it was just RoboRef.

BTW, in 7th grade I was 11. So what if these kids were 12. It was a REC league where the refs and coaches are supposed to facilitate growth. All RoboRef did was create animosity, take away an enjoyable hour, all to prove a point. Unfortunately that point was that refs are bad guys.

We'd still be walking if the Wright brothers took that approach.

How do you know he didn't? What if the infractions were after made baskets when there isn't the chance to bak them up? If the kids didn't learn after the first or second T, what makes you think they'd learn after another "warning?"

If the purpose of this particular rec league is better served by ignoring (or otherwise changing) this particular rule, then I'm sure it would have been changed. (See "no press" or "man-to-man defense only" or "everyone must play" rules for common examples) Given that it hasn't, it should be enforced.

Right. That's why it was worthy of posting. A post like "I called both a travelling violation and a shooting foul in one game today" wouldn't be that interesting (unless, perhaps, those were the only calls of the day).

It's official
 

News flash from Fox television network:

The title of the quiz show, "Are You Smarter Than Billy Packer?", originally named "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader?" has now officially been changed to "Are You Smarter Than Ralph?" We expect everyone will win, even unborn children and vegetables.

Again, the world wasn't against the Wright Brothers, but why let small facts stand in the way of making your lam point??

Wasn't it Ralph himself who said (earlier in this thread) "Why post if you can't handle different viewpoints?" If Ralph wants to blast away at someone, shouldn't little Ralphie expect to get some blasting back??

And I think Ralph is confused - he was 11 when he finally got out of the SECOND grade, not seventh.:p

My partner and I called eleven(11) on a head coach once. He had 6 and I had 5. At that time there was no limit on the number of T's that a coach/player could receive. That coach had a terrible team, and he <b>wanted</b> to get tossed. We told him that if we had to suffer watching his crappy team, then so would he.

The point is that you don't <b>IGNORE</b> righteous technical fouls when they occur. Let me change that wording.....<b>we</b> don't ignore righteous technical fouls when they occur. <b>You</b> obviously do.

CLASSIC!!!!

:eek:

Wow.

Bet you don't call NINE technicals again. Bet when this team takes the court again you won't even call TWO. You have learned whether you want to admit it or not.

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]My partner and I called eleven(11) on a head coach once. He had 6 and I had 5. Of course you did. from all the posts I have seen from you there is nothing you haven't accomplished - I guess you and Mr. Hightower are tight!


At that time there was no limit on the number of T's that a coach/player could receive. That coach had a terrible team, and he <b>wanted</b> to get tossed. We told him that if we had to suffer watching his crappy team, then so would he.

The point is that you don't <b>IGNORE</b> righteous technical fouls when they occur. Let me change that wording.....<b>we</b> don't ignore righteous technical fouls when they occur. <b>You</b> obviously do. Yes, I use judgment - what is good for a HS V game is not necessarily the same call for a 12 year old rec game. if you disagree with that then you are an idiot and need to actually ref a game or two instead of quoting the rulebook.[/QUOTE]

Buh Bye.

When the world said man would never fly I guess that wasn't the world against the Wright brothers.. Idiot.

I love give and take - I can handle it - OP can't. I just do not like blind loyalty. This site should be called lemming.com

Bet I call as many as they commit. It could be nine, it could be two, it could be zero. And what I have learned is the value of your opinion. In fact, there's even a mechanic for it -

http://blogs.nypost.com/40by40/zero.0.jpg

Yup. It's kinda amazing that <b>all</b> of the lemmings disagree with you too.

Go away, troll. This site is for real officials. you obviously can't pass the physical.

Be careful, he'll post his resume again. Remember to genuflect.

Old School used to post his resume all the time too...including his D1 games.

"Nuff said.:D

Sorry, Ralph, your "logic" doesn't fly.

According to the OP, about 1/2 of the Ts were for interfering with the ball after a basket and the other 1/2 were for breaking the plane. (one was 5 and the other was 4). I'm "sure" Mark didn't call a T everytime the ball was just touched after going through the basket -- he knows the rule. There's no way to "warn" against this infraction each time it's about to happen. Likewise, I'm sure he (and his partner) didn't call the T for just "barely" breaking the plane. And, I'm "sure" he called every egregious travelling and carry. (okay, I'm less sure on this one, because calls get missed.)

IOW, s*** happens -- and it happened in this game.

You're absolutely correct, Bob. Sometimes they batted the ball away, sometimes they caught it, held it and even walked a few steps with it. In fact, one time one of them held the ball and pulled it away from the kid on the other team as he tried to take it so he could go and inbound!

As far as breaking the plane, they waved their hands way over the line even thought the inbounder was far enough back that they couldn't come close to touching the ball and twice, they even tried to reach over and "face guard" the inbounder! They also jumped over the line once and I mean really jumped.

The weird thing was, on offense, they committed very few turnovers. They had a point guard that was an excellent ball handler and he pretty much ran their offense the entire game.

Unfortunately, they needed to have the wax cleaned out of their ears. They just never listened and they certainly didn't learn. After a few calls, even their own parents were yelling at them. :(

Oh yeah - we got zero flak from coaches and/or parents. After the game, the two coaches shook hands. The other coach said to this team's coach, "Whatever was going on with your guys today?" He responded, "I have no idea, but I'm going to find out at our next practice and stop it."

Well you got at least one thing right. There is an idiot here, but it isn't me...the "world" wasn't against the Wrights. There were some people who said it would never work and that they were crazy to keep trying. But there were also people who supported the Wrights and encouraged them to keep at it...so there's one "doom-sayer" in this thread and a bunch of encouragers...you are without a doubt the complete idiot here, and posting your supposed resume really doesn't impress anyone. There are many here (including in this thread) who have done more State tournaments, State Championship games, and more higher level things than you have. So you disagreed with the way Padgett handled the situation, no one has a problem with that. But to just start blasting away and tell him he screwed up the game - well, like I said before, you deserve whatever you get. Moron.

It's out of the bag
 

Happy Days! I found a picture of Ralph. This explains everything.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/ralphopening.jpg

Either that or the kids will learn. Whether you want to admit it or not!

Seriously? "Opportunities to not call a T?" That's how you see unsporting behavior? There's a word for that, but Juulie won't let me use it.

Real bad officials...if your support for this over-the-top action in a REC game of 11-12 year olds is any indication.

Oooh, unsporting behavior from 11-12 year old REC kids who don't have the talent to play competitive ball. Real eggregious.

I'd mention more but your head would explode. Ignored and dismissed, the world against them and for their French competitors - just like folks should treat a numbskull like you.

Anybody watch Mind of Mencia? cuz Ralph's a "dee-dee-dee"

So you would call NINE technicals in a youth REC game of 11-12 year olds? yeah - that'll teach em! Go back to hickville KS. Are you at the local "libary" on the local magic box?

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.

Don't worry. You showed the talent on this site - hammering a bunch of 11 yo for something that could have been prevented - and IS prevented every week by the simple proof no where in the USA are NINE T's called in a youth rec league. Case closed. Y'all can have your opinions and in this case it's wrong. Off to better things with more knowledable officials.

anybody know if there is a way to kick members out of the forum? cuz this guys outta here

Comic relief only goes so far with these trolls. Don't let 'em get to you. That's their only <i>raison d'etre</i> for posting.

Just because the events transpired in a REC league does not insinuate that competition ceases to exist. The REC league I work on Sunday afternoonos is known as one of the most competitive REC leagues in the state, (Grades 4 - 6). The teams in this league play better than most junior high school teams, at least in the area.

Get off your high horse. Take your ego down a few notches.

I guess Ralph Malph doesn't know that Oregon in in the USA, since this is where it happened. Oh wait - they don't teach geography until the second grade. That explains it.

Not only that, he used "y'all". That explains everything. :D

Didn't he mention something about the French in another post? That proves he's FEEBLE-minded, too. :p

Oh yeah - "no where" is one word in that context. Oh wait - I keep forgetting they don't teach that stuff until the second grade.

To use his words, that's the "simple proof". Actually, it's simple to prove something when the person to whom you're referring is simple minded. ;)

You know, let's see, how much about lemmings??

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming

I'm guessing to the common but wrong belief that lemmings blindly follow each other off of cliffs and into lakes when their population increases too quickly. Note that this understanding of lemmings is completely incorrect. Perhaps your thinking is, too.

Also, I'm noticing that you've never given one iota of proof that you really are a referee. Why should we accept your point of view with any authority at all?

9 Warnings, 8 technicals. 5 Warnings for interfering = 1 warning + 4 Technicals. 4 Warnings for boundary = 4 technicals for a total of 8 technicals? I'm either missing a warning, or you guys gave them an additional technical. :D

I think I'm wrong here and confused, and I don't have my books.. Daggumit, is it one warning per violation? No, it changed to one delay warning period... I CAN'T MAKE A RULING IF I DON'T KNOW THIS RULE!!!! HELP!

Furthermore, I do NCAA-W, NOW I'm really confused!!!!! Is it the same for FED?? Please help me, to much eggnog lastnight, and starbucks this morning!!

Is it one delay warning period for FED, and one warning for each type of delay for NCAA-W? I ask because that's how I would rule if I was in a game right this minute.

Ralph -- you have a little over 60 posts, yet Mark has over 6000... You might want to consider backing off with your personal attacks and poor attitude. Mark has not ever been suspended from this board in the many, many years he has participated, yet you are dangerously close...

Yup.

Thank you for your support, Brad. I appreciate it. No joke here.

Since others care to pick on my typos..... "afternoonos"??? Must be a SW location.

Since when does quantity = quality? Look at JR, an average of 6 posts a day for 365/year for 7 years. Most of them angry and judgmental. My guess is with that many posts he could not possible have time to keep a job or ref.

I have not said anything personal until I was attacked. Look at my OP. I said I thought it was the refs who caused the problem - since HE brought up the spectre that the players ONLY were the issue. If that is a personal attack, then you need to quit wearing a skirt. (oops, I guess that is personal....).

That is correct.

blah, blah, blah.

Are those your middle names? :p

BTW - read your own post, Knucklehead (spelled correctly). You said:
and IS prevented every week by the simple proof no where in the USA are NINE T's called in a youth rec league
not that my game was the only place it happened, but that it doesn't happen anywhere. Not only can't you handle other people's posts, you can't even correctly interpret your own.

Come back next year and try again... Thanks.