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-   -   ms game... college atmospher (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/40540-ms-game-college-atmospher.html)

Bearfanmike20 Fri Dec 21, 2007 04:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...
Ya its kind of an implied coaching box. I'm going to be cracking down a little bit from now on cause the assistants were standing and barking a little too so I'm going to be very clear from now on that assistants sit period.

Bearfanmike20 Fri Dec 21, 2007 04:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach
Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....


Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then


So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.

fullor30 Fri Dec 21, 2007 04:44pm
"Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way....."

Coach.......He's 180 from being lucid, as he posted, that's where your frustration started with the description of the play.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 21, 2007 05:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
I don't believe this is true. What if A1 is dribbling and B1 is running alongside, no LGP...A1 throws a forearm shiver off to the side and knocks B1 into the second row...are you saying that since B1 never established LGP that you are calling a block? Seems to be the same situation in OP, A1 initiated the contact with the elbow, LGP or not I have a PC foul...
LGP is only relevant for a block/charge play. When the contact involves the ball handler using his/her arm or hand, it is NOT a block/charge play. It is either illegal use of hands or a push....all still a player control foul but with no requirement for LGP.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 21, 2007 05:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20
Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.
Note that if a player is backpeddling or shuffling, it is almost certain that they had both feet on the floor at the same time at some point in time. Try it. It is HARD to get both feet off the floor in either of these types of movements unless you really try. There is no requirement that both feet be "planted" on the floor but merely that they be touching the floor...even if it is only a brief moment.

justacoach Fri Dec 21, 2007 05:27pm
Beating my head against the wall.......
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20
Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.
He was in LGP AS SOON AS HE FACED THE BALLHANDLER
HE KEPT LGP AS HE WAS SLIDING

Go write on the blackboard 100 times "4.23 Establish first, then maintain"

Maybe then it will sink in.

Bye Bye, enjoy your MS schedule

fullor30 Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach
He was in LGP AS SOON AS HE FACED THE BALLHANDLER
HE KEPT LGP AS HE WAS SLIDING

Go write on the blackboard 100 times "4.23 Establish first, then maintain"

Maybe then it will sink in.

Bye Bye, enjoy your MS schedule

Try decaf coach.

What's wrong with a newbie having a middle school schedule?

Texas Aggie Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:23am
Quote:
This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot.
Just for clarification terms, "one the floor" doesn't (and I don't think ever has) meant that the player was on the floor when he or she got fouled. It meant the player was fouled before the shot and the resumption of play will be with a throw in. For example, I've used (many years ago) "on the floor" to describe a foul during a pass when the dribbler was airborne.

Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not defending the phrase. It's completely wrong, and I was broken of this habit, fortunately, early in my career. It's wrong for several reasons, most notably that you may be in the bonus, and you will shoot, but also because "before the shot" is a much more accurate description.

fullor30 Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
Just for clarification terms, "one the floor" doesn't (and I don't think ever has) meant that the player was on the floor when he or she got fouled. It meant the player was fouled before the shot and the resumption of play will be with a throw in. For example, I've used (many years ago) "on the floor" to describe a foul during a pass when the dribbler was airborne.

Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not defending the phrase. It's completely wrong, and I was broken of this habit, fortunately, early in my career. It's wrong for several reasons, most notably that you may be in the bonus, and you will shoot, but also because "before the shot" is a much more accurate description.

See post #8 we agree


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