ms game... college atmospher
 

I was doing a ms trio last night. 6th, 7th and 8th. Wow.. just wow. It was small gym and the crowd was right on top of you. maybe.. 50 people in the stands. Not that many, but they were LOUD. Deafeningly LOUD. I think my ears are still ringing.

Any way.. both coaches were screamers. Almost had my first T. A1 (Blue) driving down the lane. Going up for a basket and B1 (white) gets him on the arm. I call the foul. Whole place erupts. Coach is like "why??" I report and as I'm walking back to the other end I calmly say to the coach, "He got him on the arm coach" He start screaming as I walk away, "His feet were on the ground it shouldn't be a shooting foul" He kept screaming that over and over again.

I pointed to him and said "Coach thats enough!!". He stopped.

My partner had to tell the other coach to "Sit Down" on another call he made.

Also had another call.
A1 (white) Driving down the lane, B1 (blue) trying to get into posistion I'm ready to call the block, but at the last second A1 lifts his elbow right into the chest of B1. I call the player control foul. Place errupts. It was the right call IMO because of the elbow.

Anyway.. crazy night.. lots of fun though. :)

ps... confirmation please...

In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

Look up various rules pertaining to this phrase. Then you tell us.

What I take from that is that you do not have to be airborne to be attempting the shot, so I made the right call. Thats what I thought.

Correct, all you have to do is "begin" the act of shooting which includes the normal pre-attempt movements...for instance think of a player going up for a layup, once they take that step where the pivot foot has been lifted and the non-pivot is on the floor before they jump off of it, that is all part of the normal movement preceeding a try...included in the try even though the player has yet to leave the ground..

Yes, you did. This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant. Even if an airborne shooter is fouled prior to jumping, it could be a shooting foul if his attempt had started prior to the contact.

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.

Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

Never underestimate the power of a middle school game.

About 12 years ago I was trying to break into the varsity roster where I lived at the time (I was a recent transplant). Another guy in the same boat and I were scheduled for a middle school game between two rivals. I was a poor graduate student and would work a MS game at 4PM and then a JV game at 6PM somewhere else, if I could.

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've never seen a gym so packed full and so loud.

The home coach wasn't happy with a shooting foul I called with 2 seconds left. The free throws won the game and we needed a police escort out. The home coach sent a tape to the supervisor asking for our heads and the supervisor told him he watched the entire game and it was superbly officiated from beginning to end. I'm convinced my promotion to the varsity roster the following month had a lot to do with this game.

In your situation: Don't be "ready to call the block." Referee the defense, anticipate the PLAY, and let the play happen. Anticipating the block can lead to bad things happening, especially if there's a double whistle and you are quick to signal block (while your partner signals a PC foul). And when you work up to higher levels, the kids are more athletic and can avoid fouling when it looks like there's no way they could possibly do so.

While I don't use 'on the floor', the phrase to me signifies where the ball is spotted and is more a verbal confirmation to my partners and 'selling' the call to spectators and coaches that the foul occured was prior to an attempt. I've never associated 'on the floor' with your reference. JMO

Games assigned by JM or CM?

I too had a raucous crowd last night for two MS games. Full stands/small gym. LOUD! Unfortunately, the first game's level of play didn't quite live up to the crowd's enthusiasm or expectations. However, the wild part was, after a somewhat sloppy, poor shooting game, a player hit two long shots in the last two minutes to tie the game 17-17 at the end of regulation (sorry JR). 17!!! :eek: Not the best qulaity of hoops, but the crowd and players seemed to enjoy themselves......and I'm sure most of the players had never gone to OT before.

JM

Funny you mention it.. my 1st game went OT also. 20 to 20 LOL

What the H-E double hockey sticks is wrong with you guys? :eek:

I was ready to call the block on the one.. and was anticipating it.. but right at the end the offensive player lifted his elbow and HE initiated contact by doing so. I may have been wrong, but in my eyes even thought the defender wasn't completely set, since the offensive player reached out with his elbow to initiate contact, I called the PC.

I said I was sorry! Sheesh! ;) I figure there will be a little something extra in my paycheck.....that's how it works right? Extra time, extra pay! (sarc) :)

If the player had LGP, why would he have to be <b>set</b>?

What JR said.

Forget the whole "set" business. Did the defender establish and maintain LGP or not?

I must be strange, but most times when we go to overtime, I'm OK with the extra 4 minutes. Usually the game is pretty good and the teams are, well, even.

Now, when I'm waiting to work the varsity game, the JV game better not go overtime! Start time is 7:30, dammit!

LGP...

Legal guarding pos..

He was sliding over to establish it.. but was still moving although to his side.. he was not initiating contact but was trying to slide in front of the offensive player to get the call.

Again if it wasn't for the elbow I probly would have called the block...

4-23
 

PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP

RULE 4 SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Thats what I said.. he was not set.. he was sliding over.. hence both feet were not on the floor. He had not yet initially obtained the pos.

..... but.... the contact was initiated by the OFFESIVE PLAYER lifting his elbow into the chest of the defensive player. 2 inches higher it would have been the def players throat.

I the case of a layup, I agree.

One place where foot movements are significant is post play. If the post player gets the entry pass with his back to the basket, his foot movement, as part of his move to the basket, get my consideration when deciding if he was in the act or not when he gets fouled.

Assuming you were 'refereeing the defense', try to look back on this episode and see if the defender stood facing the ballhandler at any time during the play.
He has therefore OBTAINED LGP and earned the privilege to MAINTAIN LGP by moving as the rules allow. He does not need to emulate a statue with his feet nailed to the floor once he established LGP. If he had jumped in the air within his vertical space and gets plowed by the ballhandler do you have a block cause 'he was not set'? What if he leans backward to lessen the imminent contact? So long as be beats the offense to the spot and is not moving toward the offensive player, contact sufficient to disadvantage the defender warrants a PC call.
Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events and how to call it properly

Not trying to be defensive. Trying to explain what I saw.

Def was initially facing another player. He turned and slid over to try to establish LGP. He IMO had not done so yet. Yes he was facing the ball handler, but he slid over in front of an already moving ball handler and had not set LGP. That why I was going to call a block.

That however became moot when the offensive player used his elbow to clear said def player out of his way. 4-25-7

"PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP"


"Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events".

Coach................ a little crisp today? He's a relatively new official who comes here for improvement and to learn something. Try offering your solutions sans the editorial comment.

If defender had established LGP and was moving to maintain LGP and offensive player initiated contact then PC whether or not feet are set or is even facing O player - but if defender had not established LGP then it has to be a block even if you think the raising of the elbow initiated the contact because defender was not legally in position. In other words if the defender had not been there no contact would have been made - contact occurred because he arrived late.

Wow, I never heard this explained in this manner. Very is to relate, explain and to teach it this way. Thanks.

I don't believe this is true. What if A1 is dribbling and B1 is running alongside, no LGP...A1 throws a forearm shiver off to the side and knocks B1 into the second row...are you saying that since B1 never established LGP that you are calling a block? Seems to be the same situation in OP, A1 initiated the contact with the elbow, LGP or not I have a PC foul...

You're right - I wasn't visualizing it that way. I stand corrected - thanks

Excellent post........

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

I know lets play pick the right response!

Look at the two statements below:

A) The act of shooting starts when, in the official's judgment, the player has started his shooting motion and continues until the shooting motion ceases and he returns to a normal floor position.

B) After a player has started a try for a goal, he is permitted to complete customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled may complete the ususal foot or body movement... These privilges are granted only when the ususal throwing motion has started...


OK which one is the NBA rule and which one is the NFHS rule?

My point is that high school refs are afraid to call act of shooting when it is really there and too afraid to hear "Hey ref were not NBA continuation!"

Try not to be too tired with the new guys, we were all there at some point.

Learning every day.

Also wanted to reference your previous post also . I do other sports and utilize other forums. Had a coach go off on me over there. Still read that forum but definetly don't put myself out there. Not because I'm all touchy feely like I'm from Oregon or something but got tired of him chasing me around the Net......:rolleyes:

The jump shot was "invented" by Hank Luisetti of Stanford in the 40s. Before that there must have been no shooting fouls.

Whether a try for a basket is being attempted or not is a judgment call. That doesn't mean it's arbitrary and capricious. Judgment requires applying knowledge, experience, rule and reason. Sometimes a player is going up for a shot, gets contact from the defender, and passes the ball because a shot is now impossible. Sometimes a player is looking to pass, gets contact from the defender, and forces up a prayer. Your judgment determines whether a try is being attempted, not some urban legends from a coach.

If I understand you correctly you are implying that you should be able to 'bare your soul' here with a modicum of ridicule as most of us here are transparent. I agree. At association meetings I may be reluctant to ask a rules question to avoid looking foolish. Here you can fire away and not take too much heat.

Let's try again.....
 

Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....

Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then

So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

That is correct. I can kick something, come here, find out how to do it right and it doesn't impact my ratings, schedules etc.

What i really like about here is reading about doing it the right way. Unfortunately I don't get quite as much accurate information
from the vets in my area......

I think part of the problem was your use of the word "set." That's fanspeak, and normally indicative of a misunderstanding of the rules. Nothing says he has to be "set." He can even be moving and establish LGP at the same time, as long as he's facing the opponent with both feet on the floor for even a split second.

I had a similar situation with a coach (a dad) the other day as well. Just to set the stage, it was a 4/5th grade girls game, Team A winning at the half something like 20-5. Team A was mostly 4th graders last year, so mostly 5th graders this year; Team B probably equally mixed. Coach B is a yeller, and IMO a bit of an AH to his kids (not a lot of coaching .. more or less he just yells at them). At halftime Coach B comes up to me and angrily states that his kids are "getting hacked out there." I reply that my partner and I are calling what we see (both teams earned 5/6 fouls during the first half). Coach replies, "Yeah, right." ..... WHACK!

In the second half A1 is near the free throw line. She is a tiny thing and "winds up" before she shoots. A1 gets the ball, she is facing the basket, looking directly at it. She lowers the ball to about waist level and then starts to bring it up when B1 grabs her arm. I call the foul .. two shots. Coach B is all bent out of shape, asking how it can be a shooting foul since the ball never left her hands. I inform him that she was "in the act of shooting" and then proceed with the free throws (I also remind Coach B that he needs to remain seated :) ). Coach's facial expression made it clear that he thought I was HUA on the shooting foul.

Same coach earlier in the game had "never heard of that" with respect to a free throw having to hit the rim in order for it to be playable.

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

BTW, we give the coaches and extra 10 seconds because when a player leaves the game (fouls/injury) they have to make adjustments with respect to mandatory playing time for the kids.

I wonder what this weekend will bring:cool: .

Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...

You both were wrong. It's 20 second replacement time, with horn at 15 seconds.

I haven't officiated any JH/MS this year yet (youth & 1st year of HS). I don't recall hearing of any of officials in the MS games having any issues.

Please re-read 2nd to the last line of my post. ;)

Ya its kind of an implied coaching box. I'm going to be cracking down a little bit from now on cause the assistants were standing and barking a little too so I'm going to be very clear from now on that assistants sit period.

Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.

"Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way....."

Coach.......He's 180 from being lucid, as he posted, that's where your frustration started with the description of the play.

LGP is only relevant for a block/charge play. When the contact involves the ball handler using his/her arm or hand, it is NOT a block/charge play. It is either illegal use of hands or a push....all still a player control foul but with no requirement for LGP.

Note that if a player is backpeddling or shuffling, it is almost certain that they had both feet on the floor at the same time at some point in time. Try it. It is HARD to get both feet off the floor in either of these types of movements unless you really try. There is no requirement that both feet be "planted" on the floor but merely that they be touching the floor...even if it is only a brief moment.

Beating my head against the wall.......
 

He was in LGP AS SOON AS HE FACED THE BALLHANDLER
HE KEPT LGP AS HE WAS SLIDING

Go write on the blackboard 100 times "4.23 Establish first, then maintain"

Maybe then it will sink in.

Bye Bye, enjoy your MS schedule

Try decaf coach.

What's wrong with a newbie having a middle school schedule?

Just for clarification terms, "one the floor" doesn't (and I don't think ever has) meant that the player was on the floor when he or she got fouled. It meant the player was fouled before the shot and the resumption of play will be with a throw in. For example, I've used (many years ago) "on the floor" to describe a foul during a pass when the dribbler was airborne.

Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not defending the phrase. It's completely wrong, and I was broken of this habit, fortunately, early in my career. It's wrong for several reasons, most notably that you may be in the bonus, and you will shoot, but also because "before the shot" is a much more accurate description.

See post #8 we agree