Wild and crazy night
 

I had my third JV game, girls, yesterday. Big schools, in a big new gym (they are calling it an "arena" and that's fairly accurate). First half, fouls were V 1, H 8. The one came with about a minute-and-a-half left. After I noticed it was 7-0, I was aware that it would probably be good to find one soon, but there just wasn't anything there. The H coach was chirping a bit about it, and a lot about a play he wanted a travel on. It was two big strides for the layup, looked ugly, but definitely not a walk. I was feeling frustrated with the first half for these reasons. Then I passed on a T I probably should've called. The V coach, while leaving the floor at halftime, said to somebody else while looking at me, "They're screwing us." I snapped my head around and stared him down but didn't pull the trigger.

My partner (an experienced guy who used to do a lot of varsity but is in his upper 60s now and slowing down) and the varsity officials picked me up at half. They all had positive feedback for me, and the varsity guys both agreed the one play in question wasn't a travel. When I asked them about the coach's comment, they advised me to get away from the teams as they exit at the half, which I hadn't thought of but was good advice. I was moving from the lead on the end they were going to exit on to the table, so fairly close by their path.

Early in the third quarter, the V stretched the lead to 38-20. H went on a quick run and made it 38-28 by the end of the quarter. The margin stayed around 10 until the final 2 minutes. H forced a few turnovers and made three straight threes (the second a long one and the third was a chuck-it-in from 25) to make it 46-44. They fouled after the inbound with 8.9 seconds left, my call as the new trail. That meant I'd be trail after the FTs and have the last shot. It was pretty loud as the H team had most of the varsity crowd already there. Sure enough, the H missed both of the double bonus, and with no timeouts left, V raced to get a decent look at a three and a putback attempt (there was a little bump on the rebound but nothing I'd call a foul) that was in time but no good. I felt great about the second half and was especially proud that I bounced back after being frustrated in the first half, even if I shouldn't have been.

One question. During some FTs with about 30 seconds left, I heard somebody in the crowd screaming about how the clock didn't run for about 6 seconds. Nobody at the table was calling for us and neither coach was saying anything about it, so I dismissed it. However, according to the V assistant, there was a few seconds with the clock not running. Should I have gone to my partner (he was the R) or the table about it when I heard the fan freaking out?

The varsity game was entertaining as well. The H coach is notorious for paying far more attention to the officials than to coaching his team. I stayed for the whole thing, going into the locker room at half and after. In the first half, he snapped about an obvious back court; an errant pass that was run down by a teammate. He wasn't that far from the trail official who called it, and he started yelling about a tip by the opponents. According to the official, he said "you didn't have an angle on that" (which is funny, because if he couldn't see a tip, he has to call the backcourt, right?). The official responded with "And you did? You have the same angle as me! It is time for you to sit down and be quiet!" But no T.

V was up 3 at half, and the better team IMHO. But H went on a run, got up 7, and started giving it back slowly. Still up 40-38 with about 3:30 left, there was a held ball with both players on the floor. A couple seconds after the whistle, the H player gave a hard forearm to the V player still on the floor. Easy T. After the FTs and the possession, it was 42-40 V. V got the ball with 1:20 left 44-44, and held for one shot. (They have three excellent ball-handlers, one of the few girls' teams that could confidently hold it that long.) After a timeout with 12.2 left, they hit a jumper at about 3.0. H coach requested a timeout and got it right away. I thought 2.2 or 2.1 when I heard him yell. The clock stopped at 1.8, so no problem, right? Wrong. The H coach met the official reporting the timeout out on the floor screaming about putting time back up, and he got pinned. He probably should've been run, out on the floor in the ear of the other guy during the FTs, still animated. Afterward, they both agreed they could've and maybe should've tossed him.

All in all, it was a very interesting night. I definitely learned a couple things and I can't wait to get back out there.

Please explain why you feel you have to "find" a foul. I've read the rulebook and I can't find any place where it states the foul count must be even, or close.

After I noticed it was 7-0, I was aware that it would probably be good to find one soon, but there just wasn't anything there.


Try to always be cognizant of the team foul count 1-0, 2-0, etc. Don't let 7-0 creep up on you unexpectedly coach.


When I asked them about the coach's comment, they advised me to get away from the teams as they exit at the half, which I hadn't thought of but was good advice.

Excellent advice & standard procedure 'round here... we wait until both teams exit before we leave the court.


Should I have gone to my partner (he was the R) or the table about it when I heard the fan freaking out?

Umm I would say when administering the throw-in check the clock once you chop.

From a coaching standpoint, I hate it when officials have this type of mentality. If team A is driving to the basket and cutting hard, they most likely will get fouled far more than team B that settles for early long range jumpshots and do not crash the boards. Intentionally calling fouls to make the foul count even puts one team at an unfair disadvantage. A team that pressures, traps and scrambles will probably have more fouls on hand-checking and reaching type situations than a team that sits back in a soft zone.

on a similar note, if team A gets 4 steals for 4 breakaway layups, should team B be given 4 steals and layups to even it out??

Are you serious? Whointhehell cares about foul counts? Our job is to call the fouls. Period. If it's 7-0, why penalize the team that's playing good defense by trying to invent something to call against them? Call it fairly, equally and evenly..... and t'hell with trying to even things up.

Officiate the game, not the foul count.

From an officiating standpoint, I hate it when officials have this type of mentality also. And for exactly the same reasons that you listed.

Call the game the same at both ends and forget about trying to even things up.

As far as the fan freaking out...it's what they do. But, you probably want to make special note of the clock starting and stopping properly from there on out. BTW, if the clock wasn't running for several seconds, and neither you nor your partner noticed, there's no correction you can make.

I'm sorry Oh Great One, but whereinthehell did I say anything about "trying to invent something" or "trying TO even things up"???

All I said was be cognizant instead of all of sudden noticing it's 7-0.
Geez! You couldn't wait to jump in huh :D
Carry on board, I have games to go work.


a-b-c ya!

Great. Now explain exactly what's <b>wrong</b> about having a 7-0 foul count. Explain what difference it makes if you do have a 7-0 foul count, please.

Game management. If it's 7-0, you know to expect the coach to be frustrated, and why. If there's a borderline (not a ticky foul, one you could go either way on) foul by the 0 team, you call it.

And what do we do if we were cognizant earlier? What would we have done then?

Several questions:

Penn Coach said, "After I noticed it was 7-0, I was aware that it would probably be good to find one soon..." The response by several was that we NEVER should think it would be time to find one soon. Just call the game. And by the way he didn't say 7-0 was a surprise to him.

Q1. Why should I be cognizant of team fouls, if at all? Is there any good reason to have this information?

Q2. So, I am officiating like you said and cognizant of the team fouls. Your response about being cognizant says to me you are telling Penn Coach he should have started looking to find one on the other team earlier than he did. So, when should I start looking...2-0, 4-0?

Nothing. JR has said it plainly, just call the game.

I expected at least one coach to be frustrated when I left home, why is often anybodys guess.

I need some help with the explanation of what is a borderline foul, as opposed to a ticky foul. And I need a lot of help with how the foul count help you decide where to put one of these.

On the subject of cognizance, back in the old days I was not registered and just called locally, jr. high and below. You know, the games where everybody knows you and can use your first name when they insult you. I was actually advised by coaches and "real" officials that knowledge like this was a bad thing.
"Put it out of your mind." I think this is largely good advice, but many times is impossible to follow, especially when it involves the star player being in foul trouble. You hear it shouted from the rafters: "Take it to him! He's got four!"

I don't. 7-0 never has a bearing on whether I pass or call what you describe as a borderline call.

Go read your officials manual:
2.6 Game Management/Awareness on page 43-44
3.6 Game Management/Awareness on page 80-81.

It includes being professional toward players and coaches, etc while making unbiased decisions (judgement based on rules knowledge).

Nowhere does it say to apply situational ethics to assuage a frustrated coach.

That's a little inflammatory. BITS isn't describing "situational ethics", in the sense that most philosophical and religious people would use the term. He's talking about minor adjustments in judgment. There's no way anyone isn't making little adjustments in judgment here and there, for various reasons. Don't call that situational ethics.

So you're ready for the coach's complaint?

I like to know when a team is close to the bonus situation. When a foul is called I'm more cognizant of who the shooter will be.

Right here is where you should make a mental note that this official is someone you do NOT want to emulate!

Bull pucky, that's game management. Try calling it a lack of testicular fortitude instead, because that's exactly what it is. Advocating calling borderline fouls is ridiculous, unless you're also advocating calling similar borderline fouls for the whole game and against both teams. Your "game management" is being done with the sole purpose of trying to avoid having to deal with whiny coaches. And the fact that your "game management" is screwing the other team at the same time doesn't seem to bother you either.

Yeah right, game management......:rolleyes:

I agree with Daryl. BITS isn't advocating a minor adjustment in judgment. He's advocating evening up the foul count. That's wrong. And very telling imo too.

The next time that I make <b>any</b> call while worrying if a coach is gonna complain about that call will be the first time.

And you might make one coach happy by evening up foul counts, but you're going to piss the other coach off while doing so. Are you ready for <b>that</b> coach's complaints?

I was taught to strive to be consistent and fair from the opening top to the final horn. Deliberately evening up foul counts flies in the face of that.

Jmo.

You go JR.

When a coach gets to :rolleyes: TALKITIVE :rolleyes: about fouls being 7-0, I tell him "That's all it is it should probably be more!!"

You can't say that to all coaches just some. I don't care about the fouls, call the game. Yes you will hear the about the difference but it's just a coach trying to manipulate you. :eek: Heck he probably agrees with you off the record if he is any coach worth his salt :eek: .

Exactly, he's just advocating getting a few calls going his way. Calls that aren't really deserved. Nothing the matter with that. That's part of his job, I guess. There is a problem though imo if you let the coach talk you into searching for fouls against his opponent to even up the foul counts.

Call what happens. Call it fairly and evenly too.

First of all, I was searching for a reason to be concerned with the foul count. Not so it can be "fixed" or manipulated, but so I can be prepared to respond to the coach's complaint.

Every time I've been concerned with a lopsided foul count, I stopped for a minute to make sure I wasn't missing something. I wasn't, any time. Sometimes, the fouls just fall that way and there's nothing you can or should do about it.

I had a coach one time answer his only question during his timeout rant about the foul count.

Coach: "The fouls are x to x."
Me:
Coach: "You can't tell me we're fouling that much more than they are."
Me:

After about 35 seconds of his timeout wasted without asking a single question, and therefore me not saying a word while looking him in the eyes; he told me I was giving him a dirty look and not to take that out on his girls. I told him he was reaching, and we were done.

I was the new guy, and he was just looking to see what he could pull. I learned something about myself: I'm not going to stand there for so much as 10 seconds next time without a question.

Live and learn.

just remembered this one
 

I recently called a GV game where the foul count near the end of the 1st quarter was 7-0. The interesting thing is that the score was tied 17-17.

Daryl agrees with what your are saying. We discussed this thread at dinner after our games tonight. We, as officials, should not be concerned about the foul disparity but should be aware of foul totals with regard to bonus situations.

This thread reminds me of the summer league game I once had. It was a boys' JV level game at when the first half was over the head coach of the team that was losing very badly told my partner and I that we had called 17 fouls on his team and only 5 on the opposing team. He wanted to know what he should tell his players. I told him to tell them to stop fouling. :D

MTD, Sr.

Damn, I rewrote that sentence a couple times because I was hoping it wouldn't be the only line in there that anyone wanted to talk about.

I wouldn't call anything that wasn't a foul a foul. But there are always some plays in the gray area. If I make a minor judgment adjustment in that situation, that means I'm ethically corrupt?

If your "minor judgment adjustment" means that you're calling something that hasn't been called all game, and also something that hasn't been called equally and evenly on both teams, then your judgment change is faulty imo.

Why adjust <b>anything</b> just because the foul count is 7-0? What is the purpose of your doing so, other than trying to appease a whiny coach?

I have a different question on this one. In the OP it said that at the end of the V game the coach called a TO with 2.2 o 2.1 secs but the clock stopped at 1.8. Is it true that there is no longer such a thing as "lag time"? Isn't it true that if either official clearly saw 2.2 on the clock when the whistle blew for the TO then they could put the clock back to 2.2 since they have definite knowledge?

Yes and yes.

After you "find one" do you continue to look for 6 more to keep the coach happy?:rolleyes:

I'm quite sure you're quite wrong about what BITS was advocating. He clearly did NOT say that the foul count should be evened up. And I'm not advocating that either.

I'm also not entirely disagreeing with Daryl's post, just his language. The phrase "situational ethics" goes far beyond the decision whether or not to call some maybe-maybe-not-a-foul contact. It seems to me to be a very unfair basis on which to agree with BITS.

GOod grief, that's just too ridiculous. He never said anything of the sort, nor even implied it.

These aren't my words! Point is why would you look to "find one soon" unless you were trying to keep coach happy? I would never intentionally look to "find one soon". Call what you see and if the fouls are 32-2 so be it. One team just fouls more for a variety of reasons I would imagine. The only reason to even know the foul totals is for bonus and double bonus! And, if a coach brings it to your attention (which OP did not say) and tells you the fouls are 7-0 you can reply "yes".

I didn't say they were your words. I was responding to your response. He didn't say he was trying "to keep the coach happy" nor that he would try to make the fouls even. Your response was reading into the words something that clearly wasn't there.

This is exactly the right answer. You should ALWAYS be aware of the team fouls. ALWAYS. Not because we need them to be even, but because it's the worst feeling in the world when you have literally no idea who your shooter is. Don't trust the table to know the team fouls. YOU be aware of it.

And here's my two cents on "finding" fouls. I once worked a college game with an official who obviously and blatantly called fouls against one team late in a half to make the foul counts closer. It was embarrassing. He called 4 handchecks in 10 seconds. I was literally embarrassed to be out there. I would never do that.

However, if the team fouls are lopsided, I'm not going to make anything up on the team that has fewer fouls -- but I'm not going to miss any, either. I'm going to make sure that I don't have any errors of omission that favor the team with fewer fouls.

Why else would anyone "look to find one soon"?

BTW I didn't say HE WAS trying to keep coach happy - I asked why would you look to "find one soon" UNLESS you were trying to keep coach happy? I think perhaps you are reading things into the words that clearly was not there.;)

I actually like the first half of that response. If the coach is right next to you, call him on the BS. "You had the same angle, Coach. There was nothing there." But don't tell him to sit down and shut up. :eek:

Really? Where exactly did I advocate this?

We are not only ethically corrupt, but morally bankrupt and we probably go home after hard games and kick our dogs. At least that's what some of these Neo-conservative, idealogical purist bull**** artists want us to believe. :rolleyes:

Wow. Call the game the same way in the last minute the same as you did in the first. Call the game the same way when the fouls are 7-0 as you did when they were 0-0. Don't try to make yourself look good at the expense of the players and the game.

Now if the calls were 7 by your partner and 0 by you, you'd want to think about how your team was working together.

what's up everyone? I'm new here and actually find this thread to be what I was looking for. I'm in my 7th year of bball but first year doing HS games (JV and F) In the two JV games I've done, I've had partners who mainly work V and have a ton of exp. Both of them have made comments alluding to the fact that they'll "find one" if things are really lopsided. I don't think this is fair at all and I'm not going to do it that way. What if it's lopsided at the beginning of the second quarter and you call a ticky tack one to try and even it up and that kid winds up fouling out b/c you called a foul you would have let go otherwise? that's not fair at all. I really don't understand where this mentality comes from! I could care less what the fouls are or what the score is until the teams get to the bonus so I can get shooters and until the end of the game regarding the score!

Whatintheheck else can you call it?:confused:

If you're changing your normal officiating standards to call some "maybe-maybe-not-a-foul-contact" fouls that you haven't called to date, and you're doing so because of a disparate foul count, then you're officiating to that particular situation.

Maybe BITS thinks that is good game management. I sureasheck don't.

Here's what you do.

I'm working a state semi-final game, 5 years ago at ECU's Minges Colesium. Team A is down 5 and the fouls are 4-0 in the opponent's favor entering the second quarter. I'm in the slot in front of Coach A.

"The fouls are 4-0 in their favor."

"I know, coach. They haven't fouled anyone yet."

"Good point."

If the fouls are out of balance, I'm not going hunting. But at the same time, I'm going to be aware so that I don't mistakenly pass on one that should be called.

Is there really nothing else in my original post worth commenting on? :(

<Wow>
I couldn't have said it better!! That's all I was really saying... nothing about attempting to even it up or fixing the count, just being aware for:

1. bonus purposes
2. ready with a response for the coaches complaints (NOT FIXING BECAUSE HE IS WHINNING)
3. I thought knowing the particulars (foul count NOT disparity, AP arrow, when 1 TO is remaining) were part of good game management.

Exactly. Know the foul count. If the count is lopsided understand why. If it's something the crew needs to adjust in terms of consistency then do so. If not keep blowing the whistle and don't apologize for it.

It's nice to know that you and Dan_ref agree with me. :) Here's what I said on page 3:

Be aware of what? I would assume that you are always trying not to mistakenly pass on anything that should be called. I considered my question above to be rhetorical.

Be aware of the foul count and if there's a lopsided count be satisfied that the crew is being consistent and there's a good reason for the lopsided foul count. If you think there isn't a good reason then adjust.

Agree....At the very least, you should mentally review the calls made to satisfy yourself that you're calling the same plays the same way for each team and, going forward, that you call a foul on the team with no fouls when they do something similar to the fouls you have already called.

Guys - what is so friggin difficult? If you and your partner(s) are calling the game the same for both sides, then the foul count is totally irrelevant to how you are going to call the next one, or the next, or the next, etc. - all the way until the end of the game. If you're calling it properly and there is a foul count "disparity", it just means one team is playing proper defense and the other team isn't. That's not your problem. You don't commit fouls, you just point them out to everyone when they occur. If you start calling it differently for one of the teams, or both of the teams due to the foul count, you are not doing your job properly. Period.

Denny Crane.

Adjust what? If you started the game doing your best to call it straight up, what can you do differently? If the foul count is 5-0 and you feel like you kicked 4 of the calls, there still is no adjustment to be made. You simply try not to kick any more calls. I agree with Padgett. Gee, that's scary when you say it out loud.:D

So just type silently. :D

My story was in reply to your question.

My comment at the end was my opinion of the entire topic and had nothing to do with your question.

So you every call you've ever made has been perfect? You've never had to consider whether you were being consistent or not? You've never worked a game where you weren't at your best? You've never been a situation where you need to make adjustments to what you were doing? If so, congratulations! You're the first perfect official to ever work a game.

Myself? If Dan, Camron, and Chuck have the same philosophy I do concerning this, I believe I'll be able to sleep soundly tonight.

Every call perfect? no
Consistency considered? yes
A game not at the best? often
Need to make adjustments? sometimes

My point was that none of the above is directly and proportionately related to the foul count. Adjustments that you may need to make might make the foul count even worse.

Picture this. Had a game a couple of years ago in our 9-10 league. There was a 10 year old kid who was a real stud in the post playing on 8 1/2 foot goals. Other team ran 2 or 3 at him every time he caught it in there, but had little success stopping him. This is a game with 5 minute quarters and a running clock and 2 or 3 guys fouled out. Yet, somehow, the game still managed to end in a tie. The big kid's coach complained later that we didn't call enough fouls. He said that there should have been several multiple fouls called. This is a guy coaching his 9 year old son who had formerly coached at every level up to small college. I asked how many multiples he had seen called at any level. No answer.

Yeah, but for those who can't read silently, that could be a problem.

This has me wondering if this might be the right time for those calls. When a young team is playing hack-a-shaq all game. Give out one or two multiples and it'll clean up real quick.

Sad thought process. Are there any other things you do to even out a game?

It could be. This was what I was trying to say. There are many reasons we might need to make an adjustment, but a lopsided foul count, in and of itself, is not one of them.

So you're saying:

A lop-sided foul count should trigger some thought. Are we calling the same contact at both ends, if it's there? Are we missing something? Adjustments should be made, if necessary, in response to those questions, and not just the foul count.

This makes sense. Is there something that should trigger the same thought process if the foul count ISN'T lopsided?

The only time that you make adjustments is if you <b>haven't</b> been consistent in calling contact. You need to adjust so that you are maintaining your consistency. That's what they're telling you. And that's exactly what Tony, Daryl and myself, amongst others, have been saying also.

If you're consistent, the foul count is a non-factor in the game.

Iow, you do <b>not</b> look to call any borderline contact fouls just because of a disparate foul count if borderline contact hasn't been previously called.