T or not??

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by canuckref

That's a technical foul...not to sure what other rules say but Fiba has this:

38.3.2 A technical foul by a coach, assistant coach, substitute or team follower is a foul for disrespectfully communicating with or touching the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or the opponents, or an infraction of a procedural or an administrative nature.

It sure sounds to me like he was being disrespectful, denigrating your abilities as an official, interfering with your attempt to report by badgering you about the call as you report, being sarcastic and insulting following the inbound call...sounds to me like he's begging for it.

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

How in the world can you even begin to consider what this coach said a "legitimate" question??? There is no way that coach was asking the question for clarification purposes...he was being a smart-a$$. Now if that doesn't cross your imaginary line in the sand, so be it...but please don't try to explain it as a "legitimate" question.

For the record, I probably wouldn't have T'd the coach in the original situation. My response would have been along the lines of "OK, I deserved that one. But that's the only shot you get to take at my crew tonight coach." And then away we go...

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

How in the world can you even begin to consider what this coach said a "legitimate" question??? There is no way that coach was asking the question for clarification purposes...he was being a smart-a$$. Now if that doesn't cross your imaginary line in the sand, so be it...but please don't try to explain it as a "legitimate" question.

For the record, I probably wouldn't have T'd the coach in the original situation. My response would have been along the lines of "OK, I deserved that one. But that's the only shot you get to take at my crew tonight coach." And then away we go...

It's legitimate because he asked, are you sure it's blue's ball? You just forgot who fouled who less then 60 seconds ago. Yes it probably was to be a smart-a$$. But this official just had a momentary lapse of a fundamental referee mechanic, calling and reporting a foul? We've all been in this situation, so I'm speaking on experience. If the coach was riding me to a point that I forgot what just happened, and my partner can't help me out (he's probably thinking the same thing the coach is, what the heck you calling), then chances are I just might've called an iffy call. Again, I wasn't there, I am speaking on what I may have gone through early in my career. Now with all that said and the coach makes that question and comment to me, I'm commenting on it and moving on. I am not T'ing him up right there on that spot. Now if we've been up and down the court once or twice aftwards, and he's still on this same line of comments and questions, then it's a problem, and I will deal with it with my nice index to index T that I've worked so hard on perfecting..

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

It's legitimate ..

No it's not. You (and I) wouldn't T the coach for it, but it is in no way, shape, or form a legitimate question. It's a smart-a$$ comment from a pi$$ed-off coach.

[Back In The Saddle]

Let's see here....

Official calls a foul. On the way to report the coach is out of control enough that his behavior causes/contributes to the official losing focus and forgetting the number. Official fixes the problem as best he can. Coach follows up his previous bad behavior with a snide remark, obviously questioning the official's ability.

Yeah, I can see why so many people here are so eager to excuse this coach's behavior. The official just screwed up so badly that the entire game is probably going to hell and it's all the official's fault. Who knows, they may just cancel basketball as an interscholastic sport because of this. So yeah, probably better give the coach one more pass to make sure he's got a complete set of them.

After all, we wouldn't want to actually address the coach's bad behavior. That would require somebody to "raise a crop." Hell there's enough apologists here that somebody could make a killing raising 80 acres of them and selling them here.

Oh, in case I have offended any of you...I was only ribbing you. Or was it just asking a legitimate question.

[tomegun]

Nope, it is legit. Some of you will make any excuse to keep from giving a T while some of you just don't think this scenario warrants a T. For the former group, I think you should think about your officiating career because you are doing the game no good. For the latter group, we can disagree, but I would wonder what is crossing the line with you.

I think "growing a crop" has officially became part of our vocabulary on the board. I tell you what, if I was a coach, I would have my way with some of the officials on here. I would be one of those coaches who might not say one thing the in itself is bad, but I would make things add up in such a way that you wouldn't realize how brutalized you were until you were half way home. I'm sorry, but I just don't think some officials get it. Like I said, some officials (like Rocky) get it, but don't choose to call it in this situation. Others just don't realize that there is about a 1% chance of this being delivered in a way that doesn't warrant a T. Oh, well.

[chartrusepengui]

This whole thing begins when the coach was ALREADY a problem when the official was going to report. To follow up with another display of rather unsporting behavior would have gotten an instant T from me. I know we are talking about a coach - but even he has to be smart enough to know that a comment like that is grounds for the T - regardless of what happened or didn't happen prior to the comment. An official being berated and forgetting a # is not an excuse or license to make unsporting comments to an official. Period!

[canuckref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

Through this forum I've seem we all have a different tolerance for behavior that is unsporting. If a coach asked if I was sure which team is inbounding the ball in a respectful manner, I would reassure him/her that I had the correct team. As an official I would never say to a coach: you sure your team knows how to inbound a ball? that would be disrespectful and obnoxious. If a coach is trying to make me or my partner look bad ...thats unsporting behavior. I don't give passes to coaches for being sarcastic, disrespectful or unsporting. I guess my tolerance leans to zero. I am happy to say I have the respect of most all coaches I ref based on a consistent standard of behavioral expectations. I am sure many don't like it, but they do respect it. It also saves me a ton of flak in games. I know I'm an ogre!

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

What a crock of spit.

Legitimate question? Are you freaking kidding?

The only legitimate question that coach could have asked was, "Can you just charge that as a team foul?"

Comments and remarks disguised as a question are not legitimate questions.

The length that some will go to avoid giving out a warranted T is disgusting...it really is no wonder why officials that uphold the rules of sportsmanship and expect coaches and players to abide by them have so much trouble, when officials allow coaches to run roughshod over them.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What a crock of spit.

Legitimate question? Are you freaking kidding?

The only legitimate question that coach could have asked was, "Can you just charge that as a team foul?"

Comments and remarks disguised as a question are not legitimate questions.

The length that some will go to avoid giving out a warranted T is disgusting...it really is no wonder why officials that uphold the rules of sportsmanship and expect coaches and players to abide by them have so much trouble, when officials allow coaches to run roughshod over them.

And my opinion is that too many officials on this forum live in the world of black, white, and Emily Post. Expecting a coach not to get emotional and simply ask a question like the one you propose is asking way too much.

Again, I will give the warranted technicals out. I've been blackballed from a conference because I slid in and whacked a coach who gave a gesture to my partner's back (and he's still working the conference, BTW).

But forgetting the number of the fouling player is a whole different level of official error for which we have no real legitimate excuse other than a loss of focus (which I've done before, so I'm not preaching) and if you can't "not hear" one sarcastic comment directed at you right after that, well, I don't know what to say.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And my opinion is that too many officials on this forum live in the world of black, white, and Emily Post. Expecting a coach not to get emotional and simply ask a question like the one you propose is asking way too much.

Again, I will give the warranted technicals out. I've been blackballed from a conference because I slid in and whacked a coach who gave a gesture to my partner's back (and he's still working the conference, BTW).

But forgetting the number of the fouling player is a whole different level of official error for which we have no real legitimate excuse other than a loss of focus (which I've done before, so I'm not preaching) and if you can't "not hear" one sarcastic comment directed at you right after that, well, I don't know what to say.

Well said!

[mj]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And my opinion is that too many officials on this forum live in the world of black, white, and Emily Post. Expecting a coach not to get emotional and simply ask a question like the one you propose is asking way too much.

Again, I will give the warranted technicals out. I've been blackballed from a conference because I slid in and whacked a coach who gave a gesture to my partner's back (and he's still working the conference, BTW).

But forgetting the number of the fouling player is a whole different level of official error for which we have no real legitimate excuse other than a loss of focus (which I've done before, so I'm not preaching) and if you can't "not hear" one sarcastic comment directed at you right after that, well, I don't know what to say.

I'm in your court on this one too, Rich.

Sometimes it's ok to be deaf. I used to dish out T's like candy when I was doing sub-varsity but not anymore. Either I don't hear as much as I used to, communicate much better with coaches, have gotten more established in the area or stuff doesn't bother me like it used to.

I think in the original post it's somewhat of a 'had to be there.'

[jeffpea]

wow...I go away for a couple of hours and this forum spends 5 pages on a situation that has no right or wrong answer and really is a "you had to be there" scenario.

We would all be better served if we got together at a watering hole and, hearing the details and clarifications from the OP first hand, could hash this out. People are assuming way too many "facts not in evidence".

The original question was "T or Not?"....based on the OP, I said no. Some agree and some disagree. Can we all please move on to an exceedingly more important topic....the POE on uniforms....

[DrFeelGood]

Hey guys, just wanted to post something on this for a second.

In my opinion, whether or not this was a T is completely dependent on the situation...so, was the coach

a) Asking a legitimate question
b) Joking
c) Being a smart-***

The answer can not be "A", this is obvious to anyone. "Surprised you can even remember that" is not the way legitimate questions are asked. It also, very (very) likely is not "B", the original poster would probably not have posed the question on here if it was. And considering the coach was just furious during the foul before, I find it hard to believe he'd be happy-go-lucky soon afterwards.

Which leaves us to answer "C", being a smart-***. So here's what the 5 pages of debating have been about:

Does the Coach have the right to throw out an insulting and demeaning comment based on a referee's human mistake of forgetting a number?

In my opinion, no...it does not. The coach deserves a technical....

AND FINALLY, one more thing I'd like to add, let's assume that you were thrown the ball from one of the players and instead of catching the ball...you completely miss it and it drops and rolls to the ground....does that mean both coaches have 1 "free & demeaning insult" each? So each time you mess up the coaches get a "get me out a technical" card?

If they were joking, then you obviously wouldn't whack them....it's all good-hearted and fun. But THIS COACH IN PARTICULAR was not joking, he was trying to be insulting, and that is most definitely a technical foul.