Ball Handler Pushoff
 

Quality JV boys game (fast, aggressive defense on both sides)...

I call 3 PC fouls on the offensive ball-handler for extending the non-dribbling arm to create space...coach thinks I'm nuts, but the defenders are holding their arms straight up (after I'd already called a few on them for swatting at the ball and missing)

Do you think coaches understand this rule, and how often do you call a PC on the pushoff?

(Ended up T-ing the losing coach with about 45 seconds left when he said I was "out of my mind" to the whole gym...but that's a whole other topic!!!)

is there contact?

If the defender has LGP and the dribbler pushes them away, then a PC call is certainly a valid call. But like chartrusie said, there has to be contact, not just holding the arm out there...same as the "swatting at the ball and missing" isn't a foul while "swatting at the ball and hitting the dribbler's arm" would be a foul.

I agree this is a good PC call if there is contact. One of my pet peeves, if you will. Dribbler pushes off defender then breaks for the basket. Almost as bad as the offense pushing the defense out of their spot in the low post. Which many only catch the defense pushing back..... :) and when I call it, the coach doesnt like it.... pretty much the same response you got. If I recall the rules correctly, the dribbler can not use the forearm to keep the defender from the ball either. Therefore if the defender is making an attempt for the ball and the dribbler uses his forearm to prevent the defense from normal defensive moves and there is contact; this would also be PC. Correct?

I see this as a case that is often misunderstood/miscalled both ways. The dribblers sticks the arm out, but no contact. The crowd, in perfect unison:
"He's pushing off!" Or the defender is lunging to try a steal and is hopelessly out of position, but before he can commit the blocking foul, the dribbler reacts, changes direction, and sticks out a forearm shiver to ward off the attack.

different question but on the contact part- i had coaches saying out of bounds and the other saying block

if A1 is dribbling near the sideline toward her frountcourt. B1 gets in her way and it will clearly be a blocking foul but A1 steps out of bounds. There was little or no contact. I called a blocking foul because A1 was forced to go out of bounds. Was this the right call or can there be a blocking foul without contact?

Sounds like the right call to me. No contact, no block

I had this exact same play and almost came up with a block, but then realized there was no contact. OOB on the dribbler.

ok thanks. . There was very little contact but perhaps if their arms hit or light body contact there could be a block call. I'm thinking I might get a player who says "what am I supposed to do, crash into the defender?"

The very definition of a personal foul is illegal <B>contact</B> on an opponent. Your question about the play is a little unclear; in one part you say there was a little contact, but your final question asks if there can be a foul with no contact.

So, to answer your last question first - no, you cannot have a blocking foul with no contact.

In your play description, if you feel there was just enough contact by the defense to force A1 to step OOB, then it sounds like a foul. If you feel A1 was going to step OOB before the contact, then it's a violation on A1. Judgement call.

You need to clarify all of this...was there contact?

If the contact caused them to go OOB, call the block (assuming the defender was not in LGP). Otherwise, call the OOB. Sometimes the dribbler dribbles into a situation that they should have avoided. What they "should" have done was not even go there if the defender was cutting them off.

It goes farther than contact. If the contact results in displacement, or it affects the balance, speed, or quickness of the defender, it's a foul. Going to be a tough sell for a dribbler to block a reach attempt to protect the ball unless that then allows him to beat the defender. Otherwise, these can be incidental contact with no whistle. No absolute right or wrong.

Take the out of bounds out of the equation. If there was enough contact that you would have called a foul in the middle of the floor, then call a foul here. If not, call the out of bounds.

You are confused or your post is confusing. If B1 gets in the way and A1 has time to step around or go another direction, sure sounds likely to be an offensive foul. Did B1 have LGP before the contact? Who moved into the other player?

- from what I saw the defensive player stepped in the path of A1 at the last second and if A1 would have continued forward then it would have been a blocking foul. A1 didn't have time to move out of the way so she stepped out of bounds. There was a little contact but very minor and no one fell down or anything like that. I called a block because in my mind A1 had to go out of bounds or she would have had to run into B1 who got to the spot late. If there was absolutely no contact then I suppose I would have called out of bounds but the contact was very little and I called a block even though it wasn't a typical block call.

In my mind, that's a good defensive play by B1. If A1 goes OOB to avoid the contact, then too bad for them.

Isn't there something in the rulebook something along the lines of "if a defender is within 3ft of the boundary line...."?

Don't think so.

There used to be a sentence about a defender having LGP wtihin 3 (or 6?) feet of a boundary and if a dribbler tried to squeeze through, contact is the responsibility of the dribbler. It looks as though it's been edited. Look in 10-6-2.

10-6-7: A dribbler shall not attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is such as to provide a reasonable chance for him/her to go through without contact.

This, to me, supports the idea that, when in doubt, it was not a blocking foul.

If defender had LGP.

or not. Defender can be standing with his back to the dribbler, hopping on one foot, talking to his mom in the bleachers. Dribbler tries to go around him, bumps him, and steps out of bounds. The call is out of bounds.

Lgp
 

Just a reminder...

LGP cannot be established if B1 has a foot on or outside the OOB line.

Touche...

Called one last night. There WAS contact, and the dribbler clearly initiated both the closeness and push off. Easy call, though the partisans didn't exactly agree.

Called it twice against the same team (different players) last night in an NCAA game.

So the dribbler stops the defender from making a play on the ball and we can't call anything unless the dribbler then goes to the basket? He just prevented the "normal defensive movements" of the guy trying to make a steal. That's not incidental.

I'm not saying it HAS to be a foul, but if he's preventing the defender from playing legitimate defense, it's NOT a hard sell at all.

And just to add to what Scrappy wrote: If it's the right call, who gives a (insert gratuitous profanity here) about whether you can "sell" it or not?

This is my favorite call that allows me to talk to the coach. Usually I tell them I need some contact to make that call. I get to establish a dialogue with the coach and also let said coach what parameters are gonna be. If there is contact that I deem more than incidential I grab it. I haven't heard too many complaints when I have grabbed it.

This call is also a good example of how this board works for me. I get to see how NCAA/Varsity HS officials deal with this and then I get to apply this in my Girls Frosh games I'll be working the rest of this week. Actually 3 out of my next 4 are Girls Frosh. Lots of talking about the "arm" and pushing off with the coaches.....

Amen!

Hey BNR, how goes it . I think this is what you are looking for. So far as I can tell, it has remained unchanged for umpteen years. (Apologies to Juulie!!)

RULE 4 SECTION 7 BLOCKING, CHARGING
ART. 1 . . . Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball.
ART. 2 . . .
c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

I almost included that statement in my post. But I've disagreed with almost all of Oracle's posts so far and I didn't want to seem like I was piling on. But, of course, you're correct. Make the right call and don't worry about the sales job.

No need to apologize! I was right that it was in there, and right about the concept. You've proven that, and that's a good thing! I was wrong about where to look for it, but now I know. That's a good thing too! Thanks!

You do realize that you're dealing with Old School again, don't you?

He may be an Old School schoolmate, but it ain't the original Old School. I'm sure of that.

Wanna bet?

My pen with the NCAA logo on it says, "Don't bet on it".

Unless somebody is writing for O/S, that ain't him. The grammatical and sentence structure of these posts exceeds the 5th grade level. O/S's post didn't.

LOL!!

OS wanna-be
 

Scrapper1, I concur with that idea. Grammar and spelling too highbrow and philosophical viewpoint too condescending to be confused with OS.


Jurassic: I'll take the bet. Do you have some admin side evidence to make a positive ID??

Shooter jumps to shoot a jumper, defense swings at the ball and is about to hit the shooters arm, shooter does not shoot the ball and lands on the floor holding the ball to avoid getting hit by the defender. FOUL or travel? You might get a player who says "what am I supposed to do, let the defense hit my arm?"

Agreed. I think I remember a post or two from Oracle that I didn't disagree with. Never happened with Old School.

Travel. Respond "yes" to the player.

That is hilarious. Really enjoyable sitting through that this year. We're again parsing words.

I think it would be exceptionally difficult to make that call, where a dribbler puts his hands/arms in a spot to block a steal attempt, while maintaining a dribble, continuing play without an impending turnover, or doing anything advantageous. I'd also guess, that a defender going for a steal that aggressively would not be 100% clean, with or without the dribbler trying to protect it. So maybe sell is the wrong word, I cannot imagine that you'd have an offensive foul there very often at all. Almost always a no-call in my book.

He he. Oh yeah. I was in those meetings too. Because I call NCAA games. Just like you. No really, I do.

Pulllleeeeze :rolleyes:

I am going to have to tell you I think your statements are contradictory here.

-Defensive playeer steps in at last second and if A continued forward there would have been contact...

-B-1 gets to spot late.

Remember, There is no time or distance that a defensive player has to give somone who is in player control. So if they got to the spot before contact, and meet the requirements of LGP its not a block....

I