Ahhh coaches..
 

Is there a penalty for this?

8th grade tourney this weekend...there is one team, wearing gold unis, they come out for warm-ups and there are kids with white, grey, black undershirts, black headbands, etc, we are playing nf rules so I have them remove all of the items and we play. After the game they go to play in another gym and then come back to the gym I am in to play the final game that I am scheduled for. Right as we are about to begin, I look over and notice that they have all of the illegal items on again. So I walk over into their huddle and go "guys didn't we just have this discussion?" The coach actually says to me "well they were sort of hoping you would be gone by now". I wanted to grab the coach by the throat and choke the life out of him! First problem of course is that the officials in the other gym let them get away with it, second problem is that this "coach" who is supposed to be an "adult" could care less about the message that he sends to a bunch of 13 year-olds...I know there is no penalty, but I thought for a minute about making something up, starting the game with a T, and parking his behind on the bench for the whole game..I think he knew I was not happy b/c I didn't hear a peep from him the whole game....

Around here we only enforce the undershirt rule on high school games, not 8th grade or lower.

I WISH that is what they did around here, but they have specifically incorporated in the league rules that they want uniform policy enforced....believe me I don't do it b/c I enjoy it...

I let a dif color jersey play. The team was green, but the kid forgot his jersey and he had his warm up blue on. The oposing coach came up to me and said he didn't have an issue with it. I had just walked into the gym at this point so I hadn't even noticed yet. I discussed it with both coaches and due to the weather and what not and the fact that it was a 6th grade traveling team, I let it go.

I agree with your approach; however, our chapter has stated we should enforce the rule at all levels. They believe this is the only way we can have consistency among officials at all levels. As mentioned above, some refs let it go; others didnt. they hope to have all enforce it correctly. IMO if it is only the undershirt, it doesnt cause confusion. I only consider the jersies when I am making calls. I had rather find a way for all the kids to play than make a major issue over the undershirt.....:rolleyes:

I agree I would rather not deal with silly issues like this, but I would rather not deal with them at ANY level, not just MS. That being said if there are rules in place, I sort of think I need to enforce them..Honestly I don't get why officials let it go, especially with the boys game. It only takes a minute to have them take off the undershirt and the undershirt is not a crucial part of any uniform on the boys side...why not just enforce it? So they will be "uncomfortable" that game, all the better, maybe they won't do it next time! If everyone would then nobody would have a problem b/c the kids would adapt...

Agreed and I do as requested. Dont have to like it; just do it. I believe if the parents knew the rule, the players would probably come correctly prepared (at least at the lower levels). Most parents just want their child to have an undershirt on because they are wearing tank tops for jersies. If they knew they needed a specific color or type I believe they would comply. The coaches could obviously go a long way in correcting this issue too. In my last game I told the players before we started where the arm sweatband had to be, non logo showing, etc.... by the first FT, the same player I told personally had moved it above the elbow.... I removed him and requested a sub. Coach had ALL players remove sweat bands after that.

So my question would be "Why would this make you so angry?" So the coach was a smart-a$$ and they tried to pull something on you. It didn't work and you took care of it. Instead of getting all bent, why not just smile and say "Nope. Still here. Still going to enforce that uniform rule. Thanks, Coach." and then just walk away...seriously, with all the important things that can come up, why start a game all pi$$ed off at the coach?

Don't get me wrong, the coach and team were being jerks, I just don't see the reason for getting that upset about it. Deal with it and move on...

ok you got me I wasn't going to literally choke him, I was just venting a little frustration about the fact that someone who was supposed to be an "adult" is teaching a bunch of 13 year-old kids that it's ok to do something if you can get away with it...it's not like i took it into the game for crying out loud...I didn't get into an argument with him, I didn't yell at him, I just walked away shaking my head...

While I haven't had to enforce this rule in basketball (I'm not working any upper-level games, and we don't enforce it in the lower levels), I can't relate to your experience exactly, but I do see something quite similar to this in softball. I have gone through, and thrown out illegal bats before, only to see them reappear in a few games, because the team thought they would be able to get away with it.

What someone said a few posts earlier is right though. All you can do is tell them that it's STILL illegal. No use getting upset over it. Is what the coach is doing wrong? Sure it is, but we've got to just move on and enforce the rules, regardless of the fact that the coach may be a jerk.

Agree with you, that is basically what I did...doesn't stop me from WANTING to do something about it, but I am able to separate what I would like to see happen from what I know needs to happen...I know there is no penalty so I didn't impose one, but when you see this time after time after time it just gets old...like I said just venting a little frustration, not the first on this board..

Oh, I get it. So when you said you were "not happy" and the coach must have known it, you were just kidding there also...I fully understood that the part about "choking the life out of him" was not meant literally, but I still don't understand why you got upset by the whole thing. Oh well, next time just choke away!:D

OK maybe you really did get me - I was a little pissed:D BUT I did not bring it into the game...like I said it was less the "rule" that I could really care less about, more the message it sends to the kids..at that point I was thinking more as a parent, but like I said once the game starts all that is off....keep in mind again that this is MS and I admit I tend to be a little more "proactive" with MS coaches, this would never have happened in a HS game..MS coaches sometimes need a little something extra to get the point across in my experience..

No $$$
 

The assigner for the Catholic School Deanery games, in which I officiate, has told us that we will not get paid if he finds out that we let players play with illegal undershirts, and/or illegal headbands or wristbands. We have been told not to enforce the "Home White" rule. These players range from fifth grade through eighth grade.

I completely agree with this....in my rec league that I'm on the Board with...they instituted a white undershirt only for the kids with NO printing on it...I think it's a bit overkill for a rec league and if I were present the night they proposed it I would have voted against it. It's rec league and you require every kid to play 2 quarters but you won't let him play if he has an undershirt on the same color as his jersey? :confused:

Wow, the assigner won't pay you if the players play with illegal adornments, but he doesn't want the home team wearing white? :confused:

Am I the only that questions the consistency of that logic? :eek:

I've found that most of the coaches at lower levels - when I approach them about and undershirt that has to come off because it's the wrong color are pretty understanding. If they look at me funny - I just tell them that it is a rule and while it's not my favorite rule I still have to enforce it. They usually just nod and take care of it.

Now - when you tell them that the headbands, wristbands etc have to be the same color - they will argue and complain a great deal. But the worst has been the narrow sweatbands the kids like to wear just above the elbow. Had a game last week where we told player to remove them or place them below the elbow. Kid did it. A few seconds later, after FT I saw them up again - his team with ball. TWEET and off he goes. Coach asks what the problem is and I told him player couldn't play dressed as he was. Coach errupts! TWEET and down he goes on the bench. He chased us down at halftime demanding to see the rule. I politely told him it was in his rule book and if he wanted to see it he should rip open his envelope and try reading it.

Twice more in the game we did not allow substitues into game because of this. It seemed to me we were the only two guys in the nation that wouldn't allow this. :(

Not the only two...

For OP, I wouldn't have gotten upset with the coach because he gave me an honest answer. Yes, he could make my life easier by properly attiring his team, but if he would rather waste warm-up time having his kids change, that's his business. I would just politely have all of the illegal items removed before the kids take the floor for the warm-up period. That's enough of a punishment right there.

You do know that is incorrect, right? ;)

True...I did have a kid with a blue undershirt on that matched his jersey, but had a Cubs logo on it....aside from the fact that I am a Sox fan and was therefore offended:) , I told him he couldn't have a logo on his undershirt so he would have to remove it...the kid was actually smart and turned it inside out, which looks a little funny, but worked for me...although I suppose I could have looked back to the whole "items shall be worn as intended by the manufacturer", or however it is worded...anybody else ever see this?

Wow, I really don't think that is right.:(
1. Could the logo be seen with the jersey on?
2. Did the Chicago Cubs manufacture the shirt?

If the answer to either question is no, then I think that you misapplied the rule.

Sorry, yes the logo was on the sleeve..

Ok, so it could be seen, but I still don't believe that it was illegal due to it not being a manufacturer's logo (question #2). The Chicago Cubs are not a t-shirt maker as far as I know.

See my point?

I think that would probably just be plumbing. Manufacturer intended it to be worn with the head through the center hole and the arms through the holes on the side. Inside out, I don't think the manufacturer cares so much ;)

Ha ha well put! My thinking was along the same lines of an unhemmed sleeve, it doesn't look "neat", etc...again, admittedly a silly item to have to deal with, but until they tell me to not worry about the uni's...

I don't read that the same way, I read it as a logo put on the shirt BY the manufacturer not necessarily a logo OF the manufacturer...are you allowing a logo on the sleeve of the school mascot for instince?

This is probably not legal. If you work the game, you get paid. If the assignor doesn't like the job you do, he has every right not to invite you back. Don't put up with that kind of BS intimidation.

Well, let's see what some of the other folks have to say on this, but the text of the rule reads very plainly.

As for your example about the school mascot on the sleeve of the undershirt, yes, I believe that is completely legal. The school didn't make the shirts, Fruit of the Loom, Nike, or Underarmour did.

Please note that the school mascot or logo is legal on the jersey and that jersey and undershirt are both covered by the same rule. So why do you think that the policy is different?

Well I suppose I just took 4.13 to mean that there could be no visible logo on the undershirt....like I said I took "no visible manufacturer's logo" to mean no logo affixed by the manufacturer...I don't think I have ever seen a logo other than one "of" the manufacturer though until this kid...can't think of a reason why the NF would be as strict as they are on other aspects of the uniform, but let you have an undershirt with a logo completely unrelated to anything on it....

Based on their baseball W-L record, maybe they should try that instead. :rolleyes:

Hmm, you're right. They would certainly do better than the White Sox.

Cubs 85-77
White Sox 72-90

:)

Wow, any other non-enforcement issues the assigner won't pay officials that have officiated game?

Catholic School Deanery Assigner
 

From Scrapper1: "This is probably not legal. If you work the game, you get paid. If the assignor doesn't like the job you do, he has every right not to invite you back. Don't put up with that kind of BS intimidation."

From MichaelVA2000: "Any other non-enforcement issues the assigner won't pay officials that have officiated game(s)?"

Scrapper1: It's not intimidating. It's the Deanery rule, and that's what we have been told to tell the coaches, especially at the beginning of the season, when they accuse us of being the "fashion police". The assigner works hard on our behalf, and he is a class act, please read on.

MichaelVA2000: There are financial penalties for showing up late: More than 10 minutes late, $7.00 reduction; Later than halftime, no fee.

Also: Game starts more than 10 minutes late, $7.00 additional payment: 20 minutes late, $12.00 additional payment.

Also: Schools agree not to solicit, and officials agree not to participate in, any raffle (50%-50%), contest, drawing, or any other fundraiser.

This assigner is very professional, almost like a high school assigner: availability sheets, which he wants updated, confirmation of assignments from officials, written rule differences (no press, or fast break, at certain points in the game, all players play, etc.), mandatory preseason officials meeting, and he scouts, and recruits, good young officials for Deanery games. He also recognizes, in terms of give-backs, that our high school assignments take top priority. Due to his work on our behalf, we get paid extremely well, even for fifth and sixth grade games, and the coaches, and athletic directors, respect us, realizing that they are getting high school varsity, or top rated junior varsity, officials, for elementary and middle school games.

These are the only games that I do, other than my high school varsity schedule, and the Special Olympics Unified Games (free). These Deanery games are great: good players, good coaching, big crowds, cheerleaders, great rivalries, post season tournament, etc., and they're all within a 20 minute drive from my home. Games vary between 6 and 7 minute periods, and most games are over in an hour. We are often assigned a "varsity" (seventh and eighth grade) doubleheader, or a "junior varsity" (fifth and sixth grade) triple, or quadrupleheader. We get paid for the high level, seventh and eighth grade games, at the site, usually in cash. We get paid for lower level games, fifth and sixth graders, at the end of the season, in one big check. This year, I plan to use my big check, from the lower level games, to purchase a high definition LCD televison, in the spring. If I don't get snowed out of a lot of games, I plan on getting a check for about $800.00.

This assigner, and this Deanery league, is a class act.

Youth league...taking off an undershirt is free...making teams buy new uniforms is not.

How is it illegal. If I hire a painter to paint my house and he says it will take three days but he only paints 90% of what was agree upon but still takes three days, does he still deserve to be paid for the whole thing?

If you don't do all of the job you're hired to do, why should you get paid for it. In this case, the assignor is telling the officials what the expectations are and what they'll get paid for doing only part of the job he's hiring them for. I can't see how this is a problem if it is both made known and consistently enforced.

Under this logic: If this assignor is evaluating your game and decides that you missed calls, or were out of position on a rotation, weak on a signal mechanic or any other reason; you may be paid less or not at all since these duties are part of the job. Consistency with this logic would certainly add a few extra bucks in this association or assignor's pocket since the association is getting paid for the game having been officiated.

Mistakes could become very expensive for the independent contractor and lucrative for the association or assignor.

You make a good point about how this could become capricious, but if the assignor states up front that the officials must adhere to X,Y, and Z or they will be fined an amount equal to one game fee, then I believe that is fair.

I would put it as the officials aren't being paid for working the game, I would administer it as a fine that was equal to the game fee. Probably just semantics, but a better justification in my opinion.