Huge Gym, Spot inbound play
 

Highschool JV girls, spot inbound play on end line. Biggest H.S. gym I was ever in. Defender very close to the line but not violating. Inbounder backs off end line 5 steps. I have to back up as to not interrupt throw in. I deliver the ball and start the count.

The girls takes 3 giant strides straight forward toward the end line and throws the ball 2 hand over head while sliding the back leg just like a soccer inbound throw. Is 3 steps directly forward, toward end line a violation?

I made no call. Help please. What's the rule?

legal.

No restrictions--->no violation. See RULING in case book play 7.6.3.

I believe the throw in area for a spot throw-in is a box 3 feet wide and as deep as there is space (minimum of 3' per NFHS).

Had a couple of CYO offials who missed this today. We're visiting and home team has small gym with less than 3 feet OOB on all sides. In one game, a player was called for stepping over the OOB line even though he had less than 3' OOB. :( In another game, a referee called a player for a throw in violation for taking one step to the side. :mad: I will give him credit for not signalling a travel though. :D

3' wide by infinitely deep...or somwhere close to that...

Close to infinite? Now THAT is a big gym! ;)

Yup; it's kinda like some football goal lines. The designated spot throw-in is 3' wide, wrapping around the earth. :D

I had a throw-in spot violation yesterday. Girl starts to run the baseline, I whistle it, and she says, "you didn't say 'Spot'!" I said, "it's still a violation."

What I wanted to say was, "if I didn't say 'don't push her,' would that not be a foul?" But as in nearly all cases on the court, the irony was best kept to myself.

According to my partner, I did say "spot," though I don't recall (senator).

Weird thing was, I think she was the only person all day to run the baseline.

Two problems with that:

1. Must remain on the floor.
2. Eventually (after a year and prolly more) the throw-in will be at the other endline.

Hey, if you dig a hole deep enough, you'll end up on the other side of the world right...So essentially, they could end up on the other end of the court, right! :p

Sorry, the spot can't cross the international date line, because then the game would be over, or not have yet started. :p

....so A1 must release the ball for the throw-in within 24 hours and 5 seconds?

Unless you're on Daylight Savings Time. ;)

Just curious, if you didn't give her a visual and/or verbal signal that it was a spot throw-in, you still give her the violation? I'm assuming this is a FED rules game. I am also assuming that you didn't know if you did or didn't at the time of the violation, but was told by your partner after the fact.

I ask because if I didn't give a verbal or a visual signal (I usually give both) and the girl starts to run, I'm blowing the whistle and calling her back and readministering. We are required to give a verbal and visual signal for spot throw-ins when the clock is stopped (which I think is all the time for a spot throw-in). Again FED mechanics.

This hasn't been specifically addressed by our board that I know of but I usually always just point to a spot before I give the ball to the player. That being said, even if I don't, and she takes off running the baseline, I'm probably calling the violation. The players should know it's a spot throw-in. The only time I usually say something to a player is in a sitch like after a TO after a made basket. When I administer the throw-in, I remind them they can run the baseline.

Me 2.

Lah me.......:rolleyes:

The visual signal for a spot throw-in simply tells everybody where the throw-in is supposed to be. Period. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with what happens when you actually administer the throw-in.

Btw, what do you do if you give the visual signal and the team doesn't provide a thrower? Count to 5-seconds and then re-administer that too? If the thrower steps in-bounds with the ball after you gave the visual signal, is that a do-over too?

You're over-thinking the hell outa this play, Joe.

By the official's manual, I am required to give a verbal and visual signal for a spot throw-in, and I am only speaking about the endline (since we are talking about running). If the thrower is available and I forget to do this and she starts to run, then I am going to whistle her back immediately and "do over" correctly, because I screwed up.

If the thrower is not available, I am signaling spot, placing the ball on the floor and starting my count. If he/she runs, then it will be a violation.

This is the reason why my partners and I communicate how and where the ball will be put back into play on the endline, after the timeout (spot or run). Again, I speak for myself and the crew i will be working with for any game.

Signal #7 is used to denote where the spot is going to be after you blow your whistle for anything at any time during the game. You're simply telling everybody where the throw-in is. That signal is supposed to be used for <b>any</b> boundary line, not just an end line. If a player runs up the sideline after you've designated a spot, is that a do-over too?

If you do what you're recommending, you're screwing up even worse. You're screwing the other team by not calling a very obvious violation. Your interpretation is wrong.

Might be wise to go to your local rules interpreter on this one,folks, before you even think about following that advice.

Again, I was very specific about when, where and why I would do the "do over".

If I give a verbal or even if I give only a visual spot on the sideline and that person wants to run up and down the sideline than I am violating that person. Shoot, if I give ONLY a visual on the endline in my above scenario, i am violating that person. If I don't give ANYTHING, when I am required to, then I will do what I said I would. Again, I would recommend everyone do as they feel what is right. Then again, this doesn't happen much, if ever, in my games. :D I have the same mechanic on the endline for every throw-in when the clock is stopped, eye-to-eye contact with each partner, signal/say spot or run, whistle, hand ball (if we're staying) bounce ball (if we're going).

Joe, I see two issues here: one concerns whether I said "spot," and the other concerns the violation.

My partner assures me that I did say "spot." The player complained that I didn't. I don't recall, although I will add that I routinely do say it.

So assume that I didn't. In that case, I failed to follow the prescribed mechanics. Fair enough.

My failing to follow prescribed mechanics does not, however, excuse the violation. Players are expected to know the rules (ha). The purpose of our mechanic in this case is to help the players, not to grant or withhold a permission (to run the baseline). Ultimately, the responsibility for knowing when they can run the baseline lies with them.

I can understand giving the girl a break because I made a mistake. That thought occurred to me at the time. But I decided, ultimately, that since she's responsible for knowing the rule, I would enforce the violation.

Are you aware that it was stated in the NFHS officials manual this year that there are no "do-overs?"
That seems rather harsh. Could you just give the ball to the other team and leave the poor kid alone? :D

Okay, lets look at this situation I am referring to in the opposite. If I tell the thrower after a time out that he can run the endline, when everyone in the gym but me knows different, and he/she runs, are you going to whistle a violation?

In regards to your no "do overs", I figure if they wanted us to whistle back the fumbled ball of the free-thrower, that's sort of "do over". I've also given the wrong information after giving the ball to the free thrower and asked for the ball back to give the correct information, that's a "do over" for me.

MB, I didn't say what you did was right or wrong, and I'm 99.9% sure I would've done the exact same thing. I was just throwing out the other stuff for discussion in hopes that the new official gets in practice of giving a spot or run, either verbally or visually.

Ok, good luck with your way then.

BTW could you please show me in the officials manual where it states to "verbally" tell the thrower to remain at the spot or that he can run?

3.2.C.5 (Putting the Ball in Play, Endline:) Page 53 of the NFHS Officials Manual.

When the clock is stopped, use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw in or running the end line privileges are in effect.

Are you saying that if you give a verbal <b>AND</b> a visual on a sideline throw-in though, you are <b>NOT</b> going to call a violation if a thrower runs up the sideline? Same as what you would do on the endline?

Signal #7 for a designated spot and the verbal for it are the same on <b>ANY</b> boundary line.

You are completely wrong on this, Joe.

Btw, what signal do you use to designate the <b>starting</b> spot for an unrestricted endline throw-in?

Joe --

It's also our "job" to be sure each team has 5 players before we administer the throw-in, and to be sure the proper players are in the lower blocks before administering a FT, etc. Yet we wouldn't (I assume) have a "do-over" if a team violated one of these rules.

The "spot" mechanic / rule is no different. You *should* do it; failure to do so doesn't absolve the team from the responsibility to know. The player could always ask if you didn't give the instruction.

Note that this is different from giving the "wrong" instruction -- telling a player s/he can run when it's supposed to be a spot throw-in. In this instance, I think you can re-set.

#1. I am NOT saying that. I am saying the opposite, I am calling the violation. In addition, IF I ONLY GIVE A VISUAL ON ANY THROW-IN, AND THAT PERSON VIOLATES I AM CALLING A VIOLATION.

#2. Got that.

#3. Won't be the first or last time.

#4. Is that a trick question? :D

I have never done this. I have only indicated when they can run.
Perhaps I should start telling the players, "Do not pass go and do not collect $200."

Bob, between you and I and the keyboard, I understand that and like I said to MBryon, I'm probably doing the same thing and calling the violation whether I remember if I verbally or visually stated spot throw-in. Like I also said, it hasn't or will probably never happen with me because I know that I am suppose to do this. But if I does happen to me, depending on the situation, I may be inclined to re-set and if the coach mumbles about it, I will tell them why I did the "do-ever" (coach, I am required to verbally and/or visually give the spot throw-in and I didn't, plus you're up 40 points so stop whining). :D

You're usually the "Mr. Rulebook and Officials Manual" referee so you do as you please. I guess in this case, you're the "Mr choose what rule or mechanic I am going to comply with" referee. :D

It's a simple mechanic that can avoid any confusion, so why not put it in your game.

Because it is a new manual and I haven't read through the entire thing yet.

That statement was not in the previous manual.

The mechanic tells you <b>where</b> the spot is and whether it's a designated spot. It doesn't give anybody license to commit a <b>subsequent</b> violation. You're choosing to completely ignore NFHS rule 9-2-1.

Do what you want to do, Joe. You obviously don't believe any of us. For others reading this who might not be sure, you would be wise to check with your local rules interpreter before doing what Joe is recommending.

You're trying your awful darnest to put words in my mouth or telling others what I am and what I am not advocating. I gave the actual page number of the mechanic, you should do, just like all officials should do, when somebody says something, go back and read what he is referencing or go back to the rulebook or manual and check it for yourself.. Now again, and again, like I said to Bob, Mbryon and others, I would probably call the throw-in violation like the OP did, regardless of what I did or didn't visualize or verbalize to the thrower. I just brought up the other stuff so "newer" officials or officials who didn't know, that it is a prescribed mechanic to visually and verbally state what type of throw-in is going to happen at the ENDLINE, when the clock is stopped, period. Again, that's page 53 of the Officials Manual #5 (RIF).

Those are your exact words, Joe. That's what you advocated.

You are advocating a do-over after a player has committed an obvious violation. You are advocating officials to completely ignore NFHS rule 9-2-1.

<b>In my opinion</b>, you do <b>not</b> understand what the mechanic entails. Your advice above is <b>wrong</b>, again imo. Also, imo, the "newer officials and officials who aren't sure" shouldn't believe me or you. They should check with their local rules interpreter.

Is that clear enough for you?

Again, that's what you advocated.

And if a coach asks me wth I am doing, I will simply say "coach, I am required to vebally and visually tell the thrower it is a spot throw-in and I didn't do that" now you're up 40 stop your whining.. :D

This situation isn't happening to me. If I did screw it up and not do as I am suppose to, again, I may be inclined to reset the throw-in.

Again, and again, and again..... It's a prescribed mechanic in the officials manual, that's really all i was trying to point out. I hope somebody saw that or somebody who didn't know realizes that "when the clock is stopped, we should use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw in or running the end line privileges are in effect". Hopefully I made my point, so I'm done with posting with you on this. I'm not on here trying to see how many posts I can post on this site.

I am not convinced that the verbal and visual signal is anything new. I think it is the same procedure (i.e., wave the line, finger back-and-forth, or point to the spot) with the addition of words (i.e., "it's a spot", "you can run").
The purpose remains to be to keep all participants on the same plane (as always) and is not specifically directed to the in-thrower.

And further, I suspect you have been doing that mechanic for years.
[ '05-'07 Officials Manual Ref: 223. Reminders (last sentence.)]

You can't make a ruling if you don''t know the rules.

The rule to know is 9-2-1.

I'm done too.

No one is really arguing that you should do the mechanic. The point is, do you reset if you forget and the thrower violates? No.

Likewise, we're supposed to count the players prior to the ball becoming live. If we forget once, and suddenly Team A has 6 playing, are you going to re-set because you forgot a mechanic? I hope not. The responsibility is still on the players.

No I will not reset in your situation. Now I am going to play Nevada... Can you show me in the manual where we are suppose to count the players prior to the ball becoming live, with the exception of the Jump ball to begin play?

You know it's not there, JoeTheRef. That is under the unwritten Preventive Officiating Techniques section learned at camp.

I know this Mick, and you may know that I know this. But the very simple mechanic that I am just trying to bring to light is in the Officials Manual. Really, that's all I'm trying to point out. Not trying advocate kicking any rules, but honestly I can think of several situations where I've called a live ball back because I didn't do something that I am required to do or because i gave the wrong information, and one of those is at the free throw. If I gave the wrong information, or didn't give any information and the free thrower has the ball (now live) are we saying I can't blow the whistle and get the ball back to give the information or give the right information? Again, the mechanic is written in the manual and we all already use it, the point was to inform those who don't use it or it or didn't know. Maybe I shouldn't have initially wrote it as an absolute that I would re-set the play, because chances are I wouldn't. I know I read somewhere on this site that "there are no absolutes in this racket"...

Good call. The rules and mechanics remain merely dynamic guidelines that sometimes change due to a lack of clarity, or sometimes change due to common useage.

Whenever we knowingly deviate from the guidelines, we should have already decided that we "made it right (for the given situation), but kicked the rule". We have decided to take the heat, if necessary, and we have rationalized that we did the right thing.

We all have different lines (some straight, some bent) with respect to the rules. But it seems more important to make sure we fully understand what the guideline suggests before we deviate from it, based on our knowledge of the written rule, of spirit and intent, and of the level of play.

A few years back, I had a partner [30 years experience, finals ref], administer the ball to the wrong team at 1/2-time and then stop action to give it to the correct team. I was appalled! Was it incorrect? ...YU.P. Was it the end of the world? ...Nope.

;)

IAABO Throw In Mechanics
 

IAABO Manual (page 40)
E. Throw In Adminstration
1. Administering official shall
a. glance to the table for substitute(s)
b. establish eye contact with partner
c. apply then "boxing in" technique (visual or physical)
d. signal the type of throw in
1. designated spot (may use verbiage, if so, "designated spot")
2. endline with no designated spot (use signal to indicate ability to
move along the endline after timeout or unusual delay)
e. put whistle in mouth
f. if following timeout, intermission, or unusual delay, sound whistle,
indicate color and direction
g. raise hand to show "time out" signal
h. hand or bounce ball to thrower
Exception: on all frontcourt endline throwins the ball shall be handed
to the thrower
i. step away from teh thrower and begin throw in count
j. signal to "start the clock" when the ball is legally touched in bounds

Are you allowed to lick your lips at any time during that process?

Well, I'm not Nevada, but I once lived there. ;)

2.4.3 Time-outs:
D. Resuming Play
3. The officials shall see that each team has five players on the court.

2.4.4 Intermissions
D. The officials are responsible for counting the players on each team.

Lots of good stuff in this new book :D

I passed gas while doing this once. But I did blow it dead and reset the play, for having inserted an unauthorized "mechanic" into the procedure. :cool:

I responded with the same two references at about 5:10PM today, but the post doesn't seem to have gone through. :confused:

I also included a response to Mick's reference from the 2005-07 manual. I acknowledged earlier in this thread that I do exactly what is stated therein, but have never done anything MORE than that. The instruction in the 07-09 manual is indeed new. FTR the citation says, "Use the proper signal to indicate running the end line privileges are in effect when the clock has been stopped."

According to the IAABO Manual, the approved IAABO mechanic for "passing gas" is a 6-step process.

Maybe BillyMac can detail it for us also, along with the relevant diagrams.

Sounds to me like maybe you oughta be reading the instructions for your Fox.

Here's my 2 cents. I visually and verbally indicate "SPOT" or "You can run" on EVERY throw-in. Yes, even sideline, when it's "obvious" that they are on a spot. Having said that, if I forgot to say SPOT and the kid ran, I'm pretty sure I would still call the violation. He should know, even if I forget to remind him.