There's been quite a bit of discussion recently here & on
the other board about the quality of girls/womens vs boys/mens games. Well tonight I had a girls HS game
(my 8th of the year) and I have to admit I really did not
enjoy it. The quality was OK, for a girls game, it was
close to the end, home eventually won by 5 after
the visitors "big girl" fouled out. I called a good game,
concentrated on my mechanics, did all the good things
(earned my fee) but somehow...it was the first time I was
on the court & really questioned if I was wasting my time.
Maybe I just need a night off...

In my opinion, the easiest game to call is a girls JV game. Boys Varsity follows close behind. So if you want to knock girls ball go ahead but my opinion stands as that. My opinion.

YU.P.
You were just a quart low, Sparky.
mick

I aint knocking anything Tim, if you've read any of my posts
on this topic you'll know that I have no problem whatsoever
with women's ball, in fact I support it. And it has nothing
to do with what is easier, this was a very easy game, maybe
too easy.

This year is my 31st year as a basketball official. I have officiated at every level from boys'/girls' jr. H.S. to women's Div. I (and was lucky enough to have officiated in three D-1 and four jr. coll. regionals) and men's coll. jr. varsity. I have been lucky enough to have been officiating AAU and YBOA nationals since 1993. I still officiate at most of these levels as well as CYO, summer league (jr. H.S. and H.S.).

I look at basketball officiating much the same way as I do structural engineering. I encounter clients with small projects, medium size projects, and large projects. All projects have certain things that are common to all of them regardless of size. And each category of project also has its own requirements that the other ones do not. Some engineers only want to do small and medium size projects. Some engineers only want to do medium and large projects. And some engineers only want to do large projects.

An official has to decide what level of competition that he likes to officiate and stick with. I enjoy officiating all of them. I understand requirements of each category and officiate accordingly. Let me add one other thing here. Tonight I officiated two Special Olympics regular season games (one men's and one women's). Officiating Special Olympics basketball has its own requirements also. I have been fortunate to have been officiating Special Olympics for eleven years now and was picked to officiate in the 1999 World Summer Games (a neck injury two weeks before the competition knocked my out of the games).

If you do not like working a certain type of game, do not take the game. I find that every game and level of game has its own challenges just like every engineering project. The job is to define those challenges and meet them.

Mark T.,
I see you got your wind back from last night. ;)

Most difficult level to officiate for me is Special Olympics.
<li>Rules are vague.<li>Team skills are all over the place.<li>Coaches are untrained.

Yet Special Olympic is one of the most gratifying levels to officiate. <li>Player and Coaches are happy to see you. <li>Team play is the rule, not the exception.<li>Each basket is a treasure to be remembered.

mick

I have had easier games
 

I have had freshman and junior high games better than some girls JV, but not all. I think it depends on the game, not wether it is boys/ girls, or JV / varsity or Jr high.

Come on Mark.
 

Well good for you. I think that people have the right to voice their opinion about what they do not like and what they like. It is apart of human nature to have perferences. Some people like Steak, some people like Fish. Neither person is wrong for voicing that opinion.

Some of us do not have a choice to a certain extent. Some of us do it because we do not want to be judged as bad people. It takes people time to get to the point where they just say no. I know several officials that are very critical of other officials if they say "I only do boys" but have the ability to take the games they want and give back the games that the would not do in a cold day in hell.

Mark, I you love doing all levels more power to ya. We are all happy for you. But please do not try to be PC and tell the rest of us to share the same attitude about them as you do. And considering that I am sure that many officials have this conversation with their partner's that they deal with and this place is no different.

And for the younger officials that are on this board, they might be feeling the exact same way but are afraid to express it because officials like yourself tell them to not accept games that would be career suicide to them if they did. Not all of us have the right to just say no!! If it bothers you that much, do not respond. I am a little tired of the "my partner did this" stories, but you do not read me saying, "if you got a regular partner, you would not have to worry about that now would you."

I wish some of us would grow up and realize that we are living all over the world and that standards are going to be different based on where we live and the systems that we have to deal with. And just in Illinois considering things are so different from the big city areas to the rural areas, I would think many here would realize differences are going to be there.

Give us all a break. We are all not the same.

Now I feel better. :)

Peace

Rut,

Having a look at my previous posts, you should know that it is rare for my to leap to the defence of Mark. However, I think you missed the point of his post.

The impression that I got was that Mark was suggesting that everyone should find the level/type of basketball that they are happiest refereeing, and stick to it.

Granted, there are situations throughout our careers that we will be forced into taking games we would rathre not - be it thorugh guilt, career advancement, or simply economic need. But we should all try only to take games that we enjoy - a grumpy referee is a bad referee.

No argument here. I just think people should be allowed to vent. Coaches, fans and players all vent. So why can we not vent?

Peace

Please, vent away!

Dan,maybe the night off has more relevance than the fact it was a girls game.I know that if I do a bunch of games in a row,the enjoyment level starts to drop big-time.A couple of days off usually works wonders.A couple of "brownpops" after one of those games don't hurt,either.:D

Mick: You are absolutely correct! I have Special Olympics this weekend from 9:00 - 1:00 on Sunday. I have done these games for 6 years (did Special Olympics soccer for about 10 years) and you get the greatest feeling doing these games. Some of my fellow officials will not do them because we don't get paid. IMHO that is flat wrong, but to each his own. I enjoy it and I will continue to enjoy it.

In my opinion (take it for what it's worth), you get out of a game what you put into a game. I do both Girls and Boys Varsity games, usually about 15 of each per season. I have always felt that I need to go into a game with the idea that it will be a great game and I have to give my 110%. Along this same line my regular partners that I work with feel that we need to OFFICIATE all ours game until the final horn sounds. We don't want to cheat ant of the 'subs' out of a chance to be part of the game either. Maybe if you are having problems getting up for these games, it's time for a break!

Rut,

Did I once read a post by you that said some boys assignors will basically blacklist a ref (my translation, not your exact words) if they did girls games as well as boys?

You are certainly entitled to your negative opinion about girls games and have a right to not accept them on an individual level. However, if I ever knew firsthand of a boys assignor who discriminated against a ref because he/she also officiated girls games, I would file an ethics complaint and perhaps more.

Last time I checked, this was 2002, not 1902.

Z

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

A couple of "brownpops" after one of those games don't hurt,either.:D

Mmmmmmmmm, brownpops. I love those chocolate flavored Tootsie-pops. That is what you meant, right? Isn't it? ;)

Chuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: A couple of "brownpops" after one of those games don't hurt,either.:D Mmmmmmmmm, brownpops. I love those chocolate flavored Tootsie-pops. That is what you meant, right? Isn't it? ;) Chuck

Yah,right--tootsie-pops!Some nights it seems diet coke just don't make it,Chuck.Sounds like Dan had one of those nights!:D

Oz_Ref: Thank you for your defense/defence (you British Empire people have such a quaint way of spelling some words, I have Canadian officiating friends who I kid too).

WI_REF: Well said.

JR: I may not always agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your inalienable right to say it.

WI REF:

Bingo. You get out of it what you put into it.

I'm in my third year as an official, and because my work schedule only permits me to do games one (or two, on rare occasions) nights a week, I stick to strictly the B/JV (pre-varsity) doubleheaders common here in Minnesota. I let the guys (and gals) who want to progress in officiating do the varsity games, even though I would qualify to do so now.

Regardless, I enjoy the games I do because I try to put every ounce of effort into my officiating. Not because I get anything out of it besides a game check, but because THE KIDS DESERVE IT. That's regardless of level, talent or ability. They deserve my absolute best effort, even if it's a meaningless, 20-point JV girls' blowout (which I've seen plenty of in my career).

Thanks to all who took the time to post their thoughts,
but who would have thought my little post would get so
many responses. I guess Mick & JR
came closest to hitting the mark. Quart low, needed a
"brownpop", and in that regard Rut got it too. FWIW I
really didn't post this here to seek advice on how to
balance my life/officiating schedule, or to be told how
it's FOR THE KIDS (uhm, no, it's really not, if it was FOR
THE KIDS I would be happy just working 3 Saturday AM 4th
grade boys games, thank you very much), or to be told I
should officiate each game at 100% from pre-game to final
horn ('cause I do that already) and I certainly didn't mean
to open up that boring "girls vs boys" level of play
argument, nor to get a lecture on how each game is a gem and
I would be happy to be out there if I could just find the
challenges each offers ('cause each game is not gem and
sometimes we just would rather be with our own families).
BTW, it's great that some of you guys are working special olympics.

So I vented, I'm feeling better now, I've got another
tonight and I'll probobly show up, if I can just get this
damn noose off my neck before I jump off this desk. :p

I see you are one of these people that lives in the fantasy liberal worlds that everything is equal and should be equal. Good goal but does not apply here.

I never said blacklisted. I said that they would not hire officials that have a greater schedule of girls, or officials that attempt to go farther in girls every year.

Whether you want to face the facts or not, not a single D1 level official does both. Not to say they have never switched at some point, but they do not go a Big 10 Men's game on Monday, and Tuesday doing a Big 10 Women's game. It does not happen. And at the HS level in many areas, it does not happen either. Or you do not see many officials on the top doing both. And considering that we have playoffs for the girls that start before the boys, it is hard to fill games with officials that have boys games and have to give them up, because they are doing playoff games.

It would be kind of hard for anyone to file charges of discrimination if you feel that someone cannot handle the speed and ability of the boys game compared to the girls. If people would stop trying to be PC all the time, they might actually realize that boys are faster, and boys jump higher and the boys game is usually expected to be called a little more physical than girls games. In my opinion it would be like taking an official that is only used to doing a JH boys game and expect that same official to jump to HS boys game and expecting them to handle the speed of the game. And considering that I have actually seen middle school kids play around the rim, and I have never seen a single girls game that is even near it, I think the level of judgement and speed is different.


This is just a fact of the game. The more you move up, the more you have to choose. If you do not believe that, talk to Don Rutledge (WNBA Supervisor), Ed Rush (NBA Director of Officials, Marcy Weston (NCAA Women's Officials Program) and Hank Nichols (NCAA Men's Officials Program) and you tell them if they are all discriminating. Don Rutledge alone said to Referee Maganzine after he decided to be the head person over the WNBA, he clearly asked officials "do you want to do the NBA?" Because if the answer was yes, they were not going to put on the staff. He wanted officials that were committed to Women's basketball, not someone wanting to be somewhere else.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: A couple of "brownpops" after one of those games don't hurt,either.:D Mmmmmmmmm, brownpops. I love those chocolate flavored Tootsie-pops. That is what you meant, right? Isn't it? ;) Chuck

To me, neither of these euphemisms stands for anything appealing. Oh, wait, neither of you is home all day with a diaper-dude...

Rut,

If living in a world where a ref doesn't get held back from progressing in the boys games just because they enjoy doing girls games is fantasy, then I live in a fantasy world. Around here, assignors don't punish someone for choosing to do both. The top refs do both and the assignors work with their schedules to make sure that the top boys <b> and </b> girls games get covered by the best refs available.....period. Many of us give every other Friday night to the boys association and every other Friday night to the girls association. I guess we're just more enlightened around here than in your area. I guess the "good old boys network" seems to take longer to get past in some places. :)

Preventing someone from doing boys games because they can't handle the speed is one thing. I have no problem with that and that is what a ratings system is for. Preventing them from doing them because they also do girls games (or because they want to go farther in girls whatever that meant) is discriminatory....and stupid. If your assignors are that short-sighted, maybe your area should think about getting assignors that are a little more forward thinking. Do they know that not only do women vote, but a women's vote counts equally to a mans?

My personal experience has been that doing boys games makes me a better girls ref and doing girls games makes me a better boys ref. There are things that happen often in a girls game that rarely happen in a boys game. On those rare times when it does occur in a boys game, it doesn't surprise me.

Sincerely,

Z
Fantasy, U.S.A.

This is not true. I have a friend who works both men's and women's games in the same D1 conference. The conference in question has several officials who work men and women.

It is true that there are not many who do both and none of the top men's officials do, but some of the top women's officials cross over a little.

I am happy for you.
 

I do not think you live in Fantasy USA, I think you do not live in my local or many other locals that make big distictions between the two. If you were to do both in my state, you would be working 6 days a week. I think that is a little much for most. Especially if you have a spouse and children. And considering that not only the quality is on the court, you also have to jungle with time. The girls playoffs overlap with the boys regular season, and it makes it difficult for assignors to get replacements for officials that have to give back regular season games just because they want to do girls regionals instead of regular season boys games. Especially when they knew they had those games from day one.

And let us face it, many officials do not want to be caught doing a girls game no matter what. This is a male dominated advocation and many officials like myself never got into officiating to even do a girls game. When I started, I wanted to be in the NBA. I have since back off that goal, but there was no WNBA to speak of and when I look at the NCAA Women's Final Four, I see mostly women on the court officiating. I feel like the system is more suited for the women to advance to the top levels rather than the men. So I perfer doing the side I feel that I would have a better chance to truely advance.

When I watch a college basketball game, I make it a habit to watch Men's basketball. Sorry I do not do the same with the Women's side. I did that long before I ever officiated a game, and I will continue to do that long after I stop officiating. So in the end it really comes down to what you want to spend your time doing. I personally want to do boys because of all the extra things that comes along with the games. And that is the same reason I watch. I am not PC in the type of women I date, I will be damned if I am PC in the level I want to officate.

That is life, we all have choices and many of us make them everyday.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

To me, neither of these euphemisms stands for anything appealing. Oh, wait, neither of you is home all day with a diaper-dude...

Hey, Juulie, I been there, done that. I was Mr. Mom for 3 years. Believe me, I am glad to be done with anything brown. I can now proudly say "Sometimes a brown Tootsie-Pop is just a brown Tootsie-pop". :D

Chuck

Name the conference.
 

I know many officials that do D1. They only do Men's or Women's not both. Name the conference. The Big 10, Big 12, Conference USA, SEC, ACC, Horizon all have officials that only do one side. I have never known an official to do both conferences in the same year. Name the conference?

Peace

Somehow I just knew you wouldn't believe me, but the Big Sky Conference has officials working men's and women's games.

They do? You ain't from the south I take it. ;)

<I>Somehow I just knew you wouldn't believe me, but the Big Sky Conference has officials working men's and women's games.</I>

True... They even had, this year, some women (gasp) working Men's D1 games -- a first for the NCAA.

Biggie,they even let wimmin drive now in some places.Whole damn country's going to hell in a hand basket!:D

So the female refs in the NBA never worked NCAA D-I?

<I>So the female refs in the NBA never worked NCAA D-I?</I>

To my knowledge that is correct.

Who wants to do the Big Sky anyway?
 

I am sure that you are telling the truth. But I highly doubt that the conferences I expressed will ever do that. But then again, who knows what the future holds.

Peace

Women's Final Four??
 

I was under the impression that Dee Kantner and Violet Palmer both did a Final Four Women's Game. Are you sure brad this is not true?


Peace

Dee worked one LSU game when Shaq was there. Violet never worked a men's D1 game. Tbey both worked D1 Women's finals.

Melanie Davis has been working on the men's side in the SWAC for about 4 years now.

Re: Who wants to do the Big Sky anyway?
 

I know lots of people including yours truly, who would LOVE to work the Big Sky. Don't get me wrong, it isn't the Big 12, ACC, Mountain West, PAC 10, etc., but it is D1.



You're probably right.

Re: Who wants to do the Big Sky anyway?
 

From the title of your post.......a lot of people would!! I know several guys (not you JR :)) who claimed that they have absolutely no use for women's ball.....but then were given an opportunity to work D1 women's....and they were willing to sell their soul in order to get there. The D1 label, along with the $$$$ that go with the games, make a whole lot of people change their tune very quickly.

Re: Re: Who wants to do the Big Sky anyway?
 

Absolutely! Heck, I'd even take the Patriot League if it meant doing a D-I game.

Kinda reminds me of what some of the fans like to scream to the A-10 refs who work my school's games: "You're a second-rate official!" (I.e., they're at an A-10 game instead of SEC or ACC, etc.) I want to turn to these boneheads and ask "Then why are you supporting a second-rate school?"

Re: Re: Re: Who wants to do the Big Sky anyway?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

Absolutely! Heck, I'd even take the Patriot League if it meant doing a D-I game.

Hey, get in line!! I'm in Patriot League territory too. I just got bumped up to D2 and D3 this year, but I'd jump through flaming hoops to get a Patriot League game. (Of course, I'd prepare by wearing asbestos-lined compression shorts :)

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who wants to do the Big Sky anyway?
 

You make it sound as if it were an accident. Way to go, Chuck!