Whao Has the Final Say?

[tnsteele95]

Watching a girl's game yesterday, it was tied with 3 seconds left. Team inbounds to half court and throws up the ball as buzzer sounds and swoosh. Was very close, inface I would've said it was still in her hands when buzzer sounded. Anyway, one ref immediately signaled a good three pointer, the other ref, again immediately, signaled that the shot was too late. The whole gym when silent waiting on the verdict. Which ref has the final say?

[Nevadaref]

The referee per 2-5-3.

[IHSAref]

Whoever is the "referee" for the game has the final say. I beleive you could also go to the table personal and see what they say, but the referee has the final say

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tnsteele95

Watching a girl's game yesterday, it was tied with 3 seconds left. Team inbounds to half court and throws up the ball as buzzer sounds and swoosh. Was very close, inface I would've said it was still in her hands when buzzer sounded. Anyway, one ref immediately signaled a good three pointer, the other ref, again immediately, signaled that the shot was too late. The whole gym when silent waiting on the verdict. Which ref has the final say?

UGH this is why there should only be one official with the signal! Pre-game!! Granted you could still have a situation where the referee could overturn if he/she decided that the original call is clearly wrong, but if you have one official with responsibility for the last shot that is a heckuva lot less likely to happen..

[PIAA REF]

Lets say they are both adament to on their call, we know they should of discussed it in their pregame but the mistake was still made. This is my thought. Please advise if I am incorrect as I think this out. They get together and discuss, they can't decide on who is right they call the other official over to discuss it and lets pretend he was the R. He tells them I do not know, I was screened and did not see if it was released in time. Then by rule they can ask one other person, the clock operator. A quick sidebar, don't ask the oerator if it was good. Ask him or her where was the ball located when the buzzer was sounded. He he has definitely knowledge we can go by his answer (pray to God he/she is a trustworthy soul) if they don't know and we still don't have an answer and although at this point you feel as if you should be in a Southwest Airline commercial... We would have count the bucket and if it resulted in the end of the game fun like hell to the locker room. If this was the playoffs make it you car.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

Lets say they are both adament to on their call, we know they should of discussed it in their pregame but the mistake was still made. This is my thought. Please advise if I am incorrect as I think this out. They get together and discuss, they can't decide on who is right they call the other official over to discuss it and lets pretend he was the R. He tells them I do not know, I was screened and did not see if it was released in time. Then by rule they can ask one other person, the clock operator. A quick sidebar, don't ask the oerator if it was good. Ask him or her where was the ball located when the buzzer was sounded. He he has definitely knowledge we can go by his answer (pray to God he/she is a trustworthy soul) if they don't know and we still don't have an answer and although at this point you feel as if you should be in a Southwest Airline commercial... We would have count the bucket and if it resulted in the end of the game fun like hell to the locker room. If this was the playoffs make it you car.

I wouldn't do this. I would NEVER ask the table considering up here the timer is hired and paid for by the home school. We would go with the person who WAS SUPPOSED to be responsible for the last shot and the other official would get an earful from both of us in the locker room.

This is the kind of thing I see in JV games all the time. Both officials waving off a shot, or blowing their whistles at the end of the quarter, or both signaling in a substitute. There should be one person signaling or whistling. PERIOD.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kbilla

UGH this is why there should only be one official with the signal! Pre-game!! Granted you could still have a situation where the referee could overturn if he/she decided that the original call is clearly wrong, but if you have one official with responsibility for the last shot that is a heckuva lot less likely to happen..

It would be a cold day in hell where an R would overturn last second shot responsibilities without the use of a monitor or an impromptu discussion on the floor followed by the original official deciding whether to overturn his own call.. At least I hope so.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I wouldn't do this. I would NEVER ask the table considering up here the timer is hired and paid for by the home school. We would go with the person who WAS SUPPOSED to be responsible for the last shot and the other official would get an earful from both of us in the locker room.

This is the kind of thing I see in JV games all the time. Both officials waving off a shot, or blowing their whistles at the end of the quarter, or both signaling in a substitute. There should be one person signaling or whistling. PERIOD.

I completely agree. I am not asking some person that has a vested interest in the outcome. If we are wrong, I would rather be wrong as an official with our decision on the court and not in the hands of some adult whose son or daughter is on the team.

Peace

[inigo montoya]

What's the proper procedure in a 3-whistle game when a player in the Trail's primary takes a 3-point shot near the buzzer? The C has last-second responsibility, right? So couldn't you have a situation where the Trail is signalling that a 3-pointer was made (preliminary 3-point attempt signal, then signalling the ball went into the basket), but the C saying the shot was taken after the buzzer?

[bigdog5142]

I don't know if this is "by the book" or not, but practically, the official that is opposite the clock should probably have the responsibility in 3 man. It's always the trail in two man (unless the school only has one clock in one wall, then it could be the lead). If you're opposite, you have the widest angle to see the clock and the play.

I always pre-game with other officials to indicate what signal we'll use to communicate with each other who has the clock when it's under a minute. I use one finger straight up in the air to get my partner's attention. Then either pat my head if I have it or point to him if I am confirming that my partner has it. Not in the book, but it works.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

What's the proper procedure in a 3-whistle game when a player in the Trail's primary takes a 3-point shot near the buzzer? The C has last-second responsibility, right? So couldn't you have a situation where the Trail is signalling that a 3-pointer was made (preliminary 3-point attempt signal, then signalling the ball went into the basket), but the C saying the shot was taken after the buzzer?

Speaking NFHS, the official opposite the table (not the L) has last second shot responsibility. It could be the C or the T depending how the officials are aligned on the floor.

The C would be emphatically waving off the shot before it ever got near the basket. If the T signals "touchdown" after the C is whistling and waving off the basket, he walks home.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

if they don't know and we still don't have an answer and although at this point you feel as if you should be in a Southwest Airline commercial... We would have count the bucket and if it resulted in the end of the game fun like hell to the locker room. If this was the playoffs make it you car.

I agree with Rich that I'd never ask the table in this sitch, but I got a good laugh out of this half of your post. That Southwest Airlines Commercial feeling is definitely a possibility!

[rainmaker]

According to 2-13, there's nothing to say the table SHOULDN'T be consulted, but the only rule/case book sitch where the table is granted specific authority is when the floor officials don't hear the horn or buzzer. I would infer from that that in the OP, if the officials disagree about whether or not the ball had left the hands of the shooter, table has no say in whether or not to count the basket.

Also, it appears that if the R doesn't have definite knowledge, the basket should be counted as good. Again, those are just my inferences from the rule book.

[PIAA REF]

I am not saying that I would ask the clock operator but by NFHS rules you can. My biggest point if something like this happens and no one knows for sure if it was good or not we have to count the bucket. Another scenerio is what if we are in a loud gym and can't hear the horn. If no one knows if it should count or not the ruling is it counts.

[Mark Padgett]

I think in this situation, you should split the difference and give the team one point. If it was a three point attempt, give them one and a half. Who could argue with that?