What I always question is, in a situation like this one, how often does anybody get all the facts. If multiple team members leave both benches during a fight, which ends almost as quickly as it began, how often will the officials get even the number of participants, let alone which one actually participated and which one did not.

Happy to say I have never personally witnessed this kind of scene, except once
after a game had ended. Had a couple of parents involved in that one.

Who knows?

We don't know whether the players and coach coming off the bench participated in the fight or not. That's the key to the number of FT's that are handed out. If they came off the bench and didn't participate, each player and the assistant coach would get a flagrant technical foul, but there would only be a maximum of 2 FT's shot. If the players and the assistant coach participated, then they all would still receive a flagrant technical foul, but the other team would now receive 2 FT's for each opponent that participated.

To know if the play was called correctly, you have to know <b>exactly</b> which players/coach participated in the fight(if any) and which didn't. we don't have that information.

Yea, could be. But from the way the story is worded, it seems possible that there's an alternate explanation. I know that here in Portland, the official that was on the game would NEVER be involved in that kind of phone call. But perhaps in PA things are different.

What I meant was that we don't even know what the ref's perspective was, what the ref saw, what the rule really is in PA, etc. The story only tells us what the AD thinks the rule is, and who the AD thinks he talked to, etc.

I agree.
The AD isn't necessarily wrong. Remember he is referring to a PIAA interp. We don't know exactly what that says. My state has a bench-clearing provision that immediately terminates the game. If three or more individuals leave a team bench, we're done. We are to assess all of the Ts, but not administer the FTs and then write the report. The PIAA could have something similar.


The same is true here, but it occurred to me that in an area where the games are assigned by the ADs and the officials have to contact those folks for games, not an association or office, then it would be logical for such a phone call to take place. Someone from PA will have to chime in and let us know how the assignments are handled in that area.

Good point.

Maybe he/she/they can clarify whether or not PA deviates from the NFHS on flagrant technicals during a bench-clearing fight as well.

They do. See post #9. ;)

I remember a thread about that mess on this forum.

Then what were you referring to in post #35? :D

Yes he is...100% wrong. I went to the PIAA Web site looking for this phantom interpretation...and surprise, it does not exist. This is the interpretation the PIAA printed last season. Nothing it printed this year covers this topic, so clearly this is where things stand:

PLAYERS LEAVING THE BENCH :<o></o>
Players leaving the bench during an altercation or when a fight may break out are assessed a flagrant technical foul whether they participate in the fight or not. That means that every one of the players are ejected to the bench and disqualified from participation the very next game at that level. The two players who are involved in the altercation are also charged with double flagrant personal fouls or double flagrant technical fouls depending on whether the altercation took place while the ball was live or during a dead ball situation. They also are ejected to the bench and disqualified from participation the next game at that level. Each technical will count toward the bonus. We know that we do not shoot any fouls for double personals or double technicals. As for the players coming off the bench, if there an equal number for both teams, then they would cancel out each since they are classified as simultaneous technicals. If, they are unequal, we will only shoot one technical foul no matter what the disproportional number is, if they do not participate in the altercation. However, if they do participate, we will shoot one technical for each disproportional number. For example, three A players come off the bench and five B players come off the bench and do not participate, even though the disproportionate number is two, we will only shoot one technical.<o></o>
Using the same example, only this time they do participate, the disproportionate number is two so we will shoot two technicals. Also, the head coaches are assessed one indirect technical foul no matter how many come off the bench and do not participate. However, for those who participate, the head coaches will be assessed one indirect technical for each participant. Remember, if you have a double personal or technical on the floor, and a corresponding number of players coming off the bench from both teams, we will administer the throw-in from the point of interruption. If we have a disproportionate number coming off the bench, we will administer the throw-in at the division line opposite the table after the free throws have been completed.<o></o>

COMMENT: Disproportionate number of players come off the benches and do not participate, the maximum penalty is one technical. Disproportionate number of players come off the benches and do participate, one technical for each.

Source: PIAA 2006-2007 Basketball Bulletin II, Rules, Revisions, and Interpretations January 2007

The fight at the State Championship was "special." The PIAA governing official overruled the court officials who had the correct ruling of ejecting just about everyone. In the interest of playing a "championship" game, the governing official used his authority to set aside the NFHS rules. Hopefully that was a one time thing, but you never know. :mad:

To my knowledge, PA does not deviate from the NFHS on flagrant technicals during a bench-clearing fight. The number of bench personnel that left the bench area and the number that participated in the fight would determine the number of Free Throws to be shot.

The only person I would call if I were a ref on the game would be to my assignor. I would have to fill out additional paperwork to send to the PIAA concerning the incident. The Assignor would deal with the AD at the school. No way would I call anyone at a school about an incident. In fact, should something like this happen in a game, my procedures would be:

1. (During the game) Record time of incident, who was involved, level of involvement, penalty. I would have the scorekeeper record that information in the official book.
2. (After the game, before leaving the court) Get all the information from the official scorer.
3. (After the game, with partners) Review information, add details if needed. Make sure we are all in agreement with what happened.
4. Call assignor, giving oral details.
5. Write up incident, give copy to partners, assignor, PIAA.

These procedures are just my own thoughts, not anything sanctioned by the PIAA other than letting the PIAA know. My local chapter wants us to inform the assignor of all technical fouls.

If the school wants details, they can contact the assignor or the PIAA. They can review the film. If it turns out the crew misapplied the rules (by giving more Free Throws than merited), I am sure the assignor will tell the crew.

This is actually the district in which I work. Assignments are made by an assignor, not the schools. We are actually expected to communicate with schools only for logistical concerns (i.e. time of game, confirming assignments, etc.). Any matters relating to the game itself are to be funneled through the assignor. This is not to say that the officials on the game (I do not know who had the game, so have not talked with these guys) did not deviate from this and actually call the AD, but they are not supposed to.

A forfeit often comes with the losing team doing so with a score of 20-0 or perhaps 2-0. The point here is that the team forfeiting is assigned 0 points. The winning team then, must be assigned something greater than 0 points. That's where the typical 20 or 2 points comes in.

In a double forfeit, is each team assigned 0 points? If so, then you have a tie game, and therefore each team could score 1 point in the standings.

Or, could each team be assigned a loss? If that is true, how could a team lose when they don't score less points than their opponent?

Just wondering. :)

There are clearly a number of places here where the officials could have erred based on the facts we do know. We know that there was a pushing foul by B1 on A1, which precipitated a fight in which 6 bench personnel from team A left the bench. While it's not clear who participated and who didn't, we know that two players at a minimum on the floor faught and should've been ejected with double flagrant Ts. We don't know if anyone else on the floor participated in the fight on either side. Based on the penalty enforcement, if all 6 bench personnel participated in the fight, the HC should have been ejected as well, and it's clear he was not from the article. Also, team A would've been entitled to FTs for the original foul, which it's not clear whether they were attempted. So it's clear that the officials probably erred in some way, but not in any way close to the whacked out interpretation provided by the AD.

I agree with Mark, you don't leave the bench unless you're gonna participate in the fight. Without video, it is nearly impossible for the officials to determine precisely who actively participated and who was "pulling people off" particularly when there's no way of defining participant. If bench personnel is in the melee, chances are I will rule that he was a participant without the benefit of video.

The comments of the AD were a joke in my opinion, and I'm not talking about his rules interpretation. He expresses no remorse for the actions of his team and his coach nor has he taken any action. I coach HS baseball, and if I left the bench to participate in a fight, or even if my players did, I would be held responsible and probably lose my job the next day. No accountability, and for him to blame the officiating for mistakes is unbelievable. Take responsibility and take action at the HS level, don't blame the refs because your entire team was out of control and the coaches that you hired lacked control. Judging by the final score, it was not a very well played game either...

Thinking about this - correct me if I am wrong but this is situation where in NCAA, you can go to the monitor to clean everything up - who gets Ts etc.

With pretty much almost every school taping games these days, I wonder if NFHS should consider allowing officials to use any means available to them in order to clean a mess like this up. If that means getting the camera down from row 50 to see who all left the bench / threw punches, why not?