Free Throw Question
 

A1 is attempting the second free throw of a two-shot foul. The try bounces off the rim and the try is unsuccessful. The ball bounces in the court a couple of times and then bounces out of bounds without any other player touching the ball (no time has run off the clock).

Does Team B get the ball since A1 last touched the ball while it was live when she attempted her second free throw? Or, does the fate rest on the AP arrow?

This happened in a Girls MS game last night. I said Team B's ball for the reason above. My partner thought the situation should go to the AP arrow. We decided to give the ball to Team B for my reasoning.

Did we make the right call?

Give the ball to team B where the ball went out of bounds. And yes it was a live ball when A1 was given the ball from the official. Not that it really matters in this case.

Peace

AP arrow. Rule 6-4-3(e).

The ball went out of bounds with no team control because of the try. AP. Weird.

What!? The rule states "and no ... infraction was involved."

In the play, there was an infraction -- an OOB violation.

Give the ball to B.

I agree with Bob.

What ways are there for the ball to become dead without an infraction aside from an IW or the end of a quarter/period?

e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

I believe the ball going OOB is the infraction here. Give ball to Team B

"The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds to touch it or be touched by it, unless the ball touches a player who is out of bounds prior to touching something out of bounds other than a player." NFHS 7-2-1

The ball is awarded out of bounds for ... "A violation, as in 9-1 through 13." NFHS 7-4-1

"A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds." NFHS 9-3-1

B's ball. Much less weird. ;)

Sooo... which one is it. I'm doing a double tonight and I just know this is going to happen now that I read it here. LOL

You decide based on the info here. There, unfortunately, is no grand-master of rules to tell us, otherwise this would be easy. :D

I believe it's an OOB violation, which is an infraction, therefore 6-4-3(e) wouldn't apply, and it's simple. You can decide if I'm right!

I would give the ball to B as a throw in from the spot it went out.

Goal.

Unsuccessful FT that is to be followed by another FT.

Ball lodges between ring and backboard or comes to rest on flange.

And, when a try or FT is in flight, a foul or whistle or end of quarter/period does not cause the ball to become dead.

(Cribbed from NCAA rules 6-5 and 6-6.)

Speak for yourself, Grasshopper. Think of it this way. It's no different than if a shot hit the rim and went OOB untouched. In both cases, the ball was live when it was in the hands of the shooter, team control was lost when the shot (FT) was taken, the ball hit the rim and then went OOB. If it was a shot, you would give the ball to the defense for a spot throw in at the spot where the ball went OOB. Why wouldn't you do the same if the only difference is that is was an FT? All the other factors are the same, except that the clock wouldn't be running the entire time for the FT, but I don't see where that would make a difference in how you administer the penalty.

Why isn't there team control?? The shooter is holding a live ball inbounds...sounds like team control to me...

Really? I thought the ball went OOB untouched ;)

After the ball is released? :confused:

Yeah, but I agree with all that, Mark!

My only point was that you will rarely ever get everyone to agree on anything on a message board, and nobody here gets "final say-so"...so, as a reader, you have to read everyone's posts, read and know the rules, then decide for yourself.

Regardless of how "easy" or "simple" the answer should be. :D I absolutely agree that this is an OOB violation on A, B's ball.

I'm still trying to pick my chin up off the floor from realizing that JR had one wrong:eek:

;)

You don't get out much, do you?:)

There isn't anyone posting on this board that hasn't been wrong a few times.

Ha ha, of course just the first time I have seen it!

You know I have to admit when I first came to this board, I thought you were a grumpy old SOB who had a huge attitude problem and always thought he was right and just loved making other people feel like s**t.....I have since come to realize that you are just a grumpy old SOB:) who IS right about 99% of the time and just has a very low tolerance for BS....and THAT I can respect...

99% might be high.....

Btw, apropos to nothing, one thing that I was taught many years ago by the guy who was my original mentor in football and basketball was that sometimes in rules discussions, it's not a bad idea at all to make a deliberately false statement if that statement fosters a healthy discussion. Of course, I'm not saying that I did that in this thread. That would be crappy way to try and get out of admitting that I was wrong.

I was wrong.

Crappy and classless. You are, therefore, a grumpy, BUT CLASSY, old SOB, who has a low tolerance for BS and is right about 98% of the time.

That was one of the examples I gave to my partner at the time. I am glad WE got the call right...

are we over thinking these things sometimes?

Yes. But there is sometimes something to be gained in the process of overthinking.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../smilielol.gif

Sureasheck is.....as long as you end up with the correct answer after going through the process. We never stop learning through our mistakes imo.

Note that you're included in that "low tolerance" category.:)

Allow me to clarify. I hope that no one takes my previous post as taking a shot at JR. I posted that little laughing gif because I found that post to be one of the funniest that I've read on the forum in five years. It struck me so because of the vast amount of truth that it seems to contain. JR is certainly an old guy who sometimes gets cranky. He rants. He namecalls. He posts strange pictures. He is also one of the best sources of information and counsel on this board. His advice is right a very high percentage of the time. When I post something and he disagrees with it, I am compelled to pause and give it extra thought. His experience simply must be respected, and there is no other poster who makes me question my thoughts more than JR. I truly believe that I am a better official today because of him and the main reason for that is that he tells it like it is. He doesn't sugarcoat his opinions or reponses. He gets right to the point. I don't always like what he has to say, but I always read it and consider it. That includes when he calls me overofficious. No doubt that there are times when I have been and perhaps all of us are or have been at some point in our development. By his calling my attention to these instances, I hope to improve and become more balanced.

And today's lesson from grumpy ol' JR is.......

We're <b>all</b> still learning. Or should be. And we all can learn from <b>anybody</b>. That "anybody" includes not only our supposed peers but new officials, coaches and even (gasp) fanboys. Even the "Old Schools" of the world might come up with something that might be useful. It's worthwhile to at least think about what anybody is saying. I try to.

Our regular programming will now resume.

Shut up.

How's that for not sugar-coating? :D

Could today also be the day you get up the courage to tell us where you are from?

It takes courage?

Whointhehell cares where <b>anybody</b> comes from? What difference does it really make? Would I be less credible if I said that I lived under a bridge just outside of Springfield, Mass.? :confused:

:D

It doesn't make any difference. You are very credible. I was just curious.

You need to leave Chuck out of this conversation. He is not here to defend himself. ;)

Peace

Impossible. ;)

Jurassic Referee
 

From Nevadaref: "JR is certainly an old guy who sometimes gets cranky. He rants. He namecalls. He posts strange pictures. He is also one of the best sources of information and counsel on this board. His advice is right a very high percentage of the time. When I post something and he disagrees with it, I am compelled to pause and give it extra thought. His experience simply must be respected, and there is no other poster who makes me question my thoughts more than JR. I truly believe that I am a better official today because of him and the main reason for that is that he tells it like it is. He doesn't sugarcoat his opinions or reponses. He gets right to the point. I don't always like what he has to say, but I always read it and consider it. That includes when he calls me overofficious. No doubt that there are times when I have been and perhaps all of us are or have been at some point in our development. By his calling my attention to these instances, I hope to improve and become more balanced."

I agree 100%, however, in the four years that I've been visiting and posting on this Forum, I think that Jurassic Referee has mellowed a little, he has certainly decreased his namecalling, and he has saved his ranting for thjngs that really deserve ranting. Maybe it's because Old School has dissappeared.